ok so if conrad was dead, who were you fighting?

[shart thrower]

at first you fought the refugees turned rebels by the CIA, who were fighting the defected american military before you arrived. then you fought the defected american military with the CIA. if conrad was dead, who was leading the defected 33rd? are we supposed to believe that they didn't defect? if so, why was the CIA fighting them? and those hanging corpses were real, who hung them? any way you slice it, the twist makes no sense.

[Pkmns]

The way I understand it, the 33rd (led by Konrad with Radioman as his PR) attempted, against orders, to evacuate Dubai. Once this failed, they established martial law, leading to an uprising which the CIA helped (probably in the hopes of having both parties wipe each other). At some point, because of the atrocities he was guilty of, Konrad shot himself. This must have happened not more than a couple days before Walker gets there.

So, either Radioman took Walker's place as the person above me said, or Walker had committed suicide very recently and his death was not even known to his men.
Also note that the final part of the game could be 100% Walker's self-deception, as it's clear that the 33rd never surrendered (if Walker doesn't kill himself, the soldier from the 33rd he was talking to disappears) - also note that in the part where you fight "Adams" if you get killed you get a white flash and find out that it was just a hallucination, which might hint at that whole part being a dream.

I've read on Wikipedia that one of the main writers said that they wanted the boundary between reality and hallucination to be unclear. He even suggests that Walker died on the helicopter in the prologue, and the whole game is a mix of memories and fantasies of Walker as he agonises - which makes a lot of sense: how did Walker, Lugo and Adams end up being split like that after crashing on the same helicopter?

[shart thrower]

Originally posted by Pkmns:

The way I understand it, the 33rd (led by Konrad with Radioman as his PR) attempted, against orders, to evacuate Dubai. Once this failed, they established martial law, leading to an uprising which the CIA helped (probably in the hopes of having both parties wipe each other). At some point, because of the atrocities he was guilty of, Konrad shot himself. This must have happened not more than a couple days before Walker gets there.

So, either Radioman took Walker's place as the person above me said, or Walker had committed suicide very recently and his death was not even known to his men.
Also note that the final part of the game could be 100% Walker's self-deception, as it's clear that the 33rd never surrendered (if Walker doesn't kill himself, the soldier from the 33rd he was talking to disappears) - also note that in the part where you fight "Adams" if you get killed you get a white flash and find out that it was just a hallucination, which might hint at that whole part being a dream.

I've read on Wikipedia that one of the main writers said that they wanted the boundary between reality and hallucination to be unclear. He even suggests that Walker died on the helicopter in the prologue, and the whole game is a mix of memories and fantasies of Walker as he agonises - which makes a lot of sense: how did Walker, Lugo and Adams end up being split like that after crashing on the same helicopter?

sounds like they just wanted to make a confusing game more than actually tell a coherent story

[Traveller]

There is a sandstorm in Dubai and the 33rd tries to help. First CIA agents help Conrad to take control. Then Conrad tries to lead people outside the city. It fails and it fails terribly. CIA agents think: “Oh… some people might think that the US army was defeated by a sandstorm… It can greatly inspire the opposition in many conflicts in many other places. So… let’s make an honorable story out of it. 33rd sacrificed themselves. Sounds good.” And they started to make the situation worse. The true chaos begins, 33rd starts to split up. Conrad tries some drastic measures, but they don’t help.

He applies even more drastic measures, chaos intensifies, Conrad understands that everything is his fault. And he shots himself. People might not know about that, who would tell that the leader is dead? OR everyone knew, it was a common knowledge and nobody mentions that. The state of things are somehow bad, BUT stable. And then Conrad comes. Everybody knew 3 sides: 33rd, locals, CIA. And then comes strange guys, they start to shoot. Hey, would you trust them in a situation like that? Of course not.

They fight everyone who shoots at them, and that does pretty much everyone, because no one truly believes them. In this situation Walker’s PTSD comes into play. Remember, he admires Conrad. And some part of his mid KNOWS that Conrad is dead, but the thing is - Conrad is an ideal for a man with PTSD. If he accepts that - he will declare himself mad for himself. So, his mind starts to “correct” reality. In the atmosphere of chaos.

If you mix two variables: mental disorder and chaos of desperate people, some really bad things might happen. And so they did.

[Harime Nui]

No one was in charge. There are at least three factions of civilians (Riggs, Gould, and the pro-33rd) and probably multiple factions of 33rd. The Interrogator (the guy who tortured Daniels to death and captures Gould) was probably one faction leader, possibly the winner of whatever internal struggle the 33rd had. It's important to understand that a lot of the things Walker says have NO basis in fact--he's trying to make sense of a situation he's walked into with zero information.

Konrad has been dead for a long time (as indicated by the mummified look of his corpse). His last orders (which you hear the 33rd shout at each other over and over) were "hold the line!" So that's what the 33rd have been doing: holding their positions and checkpoints, trying to keep the civilians under control. The Radioman is keeping their disparate outposts in touch with each other via his jury-rigged speaker system but it's unlikely he's literally in command (as if a bunch of soldiers would take orders from "a fat dude with an ipod.")

There's no evidence that Konrad led a purge of the Battalion or killed his command staff. That whole conversation is in Walker's head. We also know that Gould was not onboard with Riggs' plan to wipe out the city. We know that The Interrogator tortured Daniels to death, but not when. It stands to reason he did so shortly after Grey Fox arrived in the city/made contact. Daniels may not have even attacked the 33rd initially, he might have been taken and tortured after trying to make contact. Daniels was probably team leader and after his death, Riggs and Gould split over what to do (Castavan apparently siding with Riggs), but both were convinced the 33rd was the enemy.

In the end, we don't know a lot of the details of what happened over the last month in Dubai, and it doesn't really matter. Walker barely tried and never came close to finding out the truth because he was too obsessed with making things fit a clean, Goodguys and Badguys narrative, with him playing hero.

[Spyder3k]

Basically it's three solutions: Plot holes, suspension of belief, or just the fact that the main protagonist is basically insane. And who knows how much of what we saw in the game even happened at all :)

[Lewis]

Originally posted by peepee poopoo:

sounds like they just wanted to make a confusing game more than actually tell a coherent story

Or perhaps you just completely missed the point of an unreliable narrator.

Here's what happened:

The 33rd try to evacuate Dubai after the sandstorms get too much. They fail, people die during the attempted evacuation, everyone's stuck in Dubai. Konrad demands that everyone abandons their orders and stays in order to protect Dubai from total anarchy. Half of the 33rd disagree and demand to leave, they get executed. The new half is the 'Damned 33rd'. The Damned 33rd try to keep people sticking to rations and execute martial law on people who try to steal or don't follow the new rules. The CIA catch wind of this and do their best to cover up the 33rd's failure, arming the rebels who don't like the fact they're being oppressed by the 33rd, hoping that they will kill each other. Konrad kills himself sometime between this after feeling guilt from the chaos he has brought on Dubai.

Walker arrives, Konrad is dead, Radioman is in charge of the 33rd. Walker's squad defend themselves against rebels who think they are 33rd. 33rd starts attacking Walker's Squad, thinking they are CIA. Walker's Squad try to defend themselves and find CIA to save civilians. Walker's Squad ends up lighting civilians on fire in a 33rd camp, Walker gets PTSD and delusions, becomes everyone's enemy but the CIA, and unintentionally helps along the plot to waste all the water in Dubai alongside CIA agent Riggs, leaving the civilians to die and fulfilling the CIA's plan to cover up the failure of the US army. Walker's Squad gets the fallout, Lugo gets hung, Adams gets 33rd'd to death, 33rd get Adam'd to death, Walker either daydreams himself to death, shoots his rescuers and dies, or goes home.

Pretty simple.

[Gazza]

A lot of the turret sections you just mow down hordes of enemies, and I kept thinking how cliche those sections were as so many games do this with endless enemies who respawn and you whack-a-mole them all. The whole hallucinatory plot really hits hard if you consider that almost none of it happened, and that Walker's final moments (the game we play) are him being the hero and 'saving the day'. I found it extremely relatable as many, many Americans believe this involving the Vietnam War, trying to justify all the warcrimes and mass murder with 'we had no choice, they are evil so it's justified'. It's also a commentary on video games, especially modern military shooters who so often have objectives thrown at you so quickly you don't have time to process them, you just follow orders like a good jarhead (automaton) you are. This game basically mixes elements of Bioshock/The Shining/Apocalypse Now where the introspection points the finger back at you and says "No, YOU ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ did this" and it's up to you how you reconcile it, will you accept it or defy it? Art is in the eye of the beholder and many other people may have a very different viewpoint from me.

[幽默机枪]

Originally posted by Lewis:

Originally posted by peepee poopoo:

sounds like they just wanted to make a confusing game more than actually tell a coherent story

Or perhaps you just completely missed the point of an unreliable narrator.

Here's what happened:

The 33rd try to evacuate Dubai after the sandstorms get too much. They fail, people die during the attempted evacuation, everyone's stuck in Dubai. Konrad demands that everyone abandons their orders and stays in order to protect Dubai from total anarchy. Half of the 33rd disagree and demand to leave, they get executed. The new half is the 'Damned 33rd'. The Damned 33rd try to keep people sticking to rations and execute martial law on people who try to steal or don't follow the new rules. The CIA catch wind of this and do their best to cover up the 33rd's failure, arming the rebels who don't like the fact they're being oppressed by the 33rd, hoping that they will kill each other. Konrad kills himself sometime between this after feeling guilt from the chaos he has brought on Dubai.

Walker arrives, Konrad is dead, Radioman is in charge of the 33rd. Walker's squad defend themselves against rebels who think they are 33rd. 33rd starts attacking Walker's Squad, thinking they are CIA. Walker's Squad try to defend themselves and find CIA to save civilians. Walker's Squad ends up lighting civilians on fire in a 33rd camp, Walker gets PTSD and delusions, becomes everyone's enemy but the CIA, and unintentionally helps along the plot to waste all the water in Dubai alongside CIA agent Riggs, leaving the civilians to die and fulfilling the CIA's plan to cover up the failure of the US army. Walker's Squad gets the fallout, Lugo gets hung, Adams gets 33rd'd to death, 33rd get Adam'd to death, Walker either daydreams himself to death, shoots his rescuers and dies, or goes home.

Pretty simple.

Not that simple.
1.In final chapter,when he met Konrad's dead body. Walker's beard has burned by the firefight he been.
2.When Walker Choose 2 shoot Konard(Blame Him),then called in back up(Before this,The Walker And Radioman mentioned that the single are almost impossibile to sent out the storm wall.)Walker take 6 months to track Konard's single.(Maybe more,and Walker's action is out of Army sanction,so he prertty much played long wolf with his 2 best pals.)
3.When the calvery come to Dubai,Walker's beard are pretty much grow.The problem is,When you shave your beard,It will take at least 3 days to reocvered like that.
4.Game also mentioned the Dubai will Fxxked in a week after Walker&CIA took out the water supply.So 1 day later,Walker mange to get a helo to escape.
And 1 more day later,Walker met Konard's dead body. When he called in backup,It take 3days to get him(Walker's beard like i said.)
So walker maybe die in helo crashed,Maybe not.
What I prefer is:
Walker died when he saw Konard's corps.
"Who say I did?"
True Ending is:Walker choose to die on nature causes(Like dehydration)along side with Konrad,for the sins he had.Before he died,He imagined many possible if he get helped or he did what Konard did.

[幽默机枪]

Acordding to game
33rd split into 2 parts
The peace and The eagle
The peace will keep civilian off the hot zone like the "Gate"
The eagle will try to take out the CIA forces
But what Walker's doing maybe make these 2 split parts backing into 1 parts
So eventually we are fighting the 33rd all the way to hell
1 thing I dont understand is:Why Walker dont call in cavalry when he first make contact with living people in Dubai?
And the cavalry,Why they dont make coms with walker's team?
So I assumed everyone in command chain are know what will happen when a hot headed soldier like Walker make his way in Dubai.
This is conspiracy of US goverment.

[Lewis]

Originally posted by 瓦尔特利·博77:

Not that simple.
1.In final chapter,when he met Konrad's dead body. Walker's beard has burned by the firefight he been.
2.When Walker Choose 2 shoot Konard(Blame Him),then called in back up(Before this,The Walker And Radioman mentioned that the single are almost impossibile to sent out the storm wall.)Walker take 6 months to track Konard's single.(Maybe more,and Walker's action is out of Army sanction,so he prertty much played long wolf with his 2 best pals.)
3.When the calvery come to Dubai,Walker's beard are pretty much grow.The problem is,When you shave your beard,It will take at least 3 days to reocvered like that.
4.Game also mentioned the Dubai will Fxxked in a week after Walker&CIA took out the water supply.So 1 day later,Walker mange to get a helo to escape.
And 1 more day later,Walker met Konard's dead body. When he called in backup,It take 3days to get him(Walker's beard like i said.)
So walker maybe die in helo crashed,Maybe not.
What I prefer is:
Walker died when he saw Konard's corps.
"Who say I did?"
True Ending is:Walker choose to die on nature causes(Like dehydration)along side with Konrad,for the sins he had.Before he died,He imagined many possible if he get helped or he did what Konard did.

I don't think this changes anything I said. Perhaps the ending where he gets rescued is a delusion, but then again, all of this could be a delusion. If they sent Walker out there, they can definitely send a platoon out for him too. Where did you get '3 days' for evacuation? It ends after 'survivors: one too many'.

Originally posted by 瓦尔特利·博77:

Acordding to game
33rd split into 2 parts
The peace and The eagle
The peace will keep civilian off the hot zone like the "Gate"
The eagle will try to take out the CIA forces
But what Walker's doing maybe make these 2 split parts backing into 1 parts
So eventually we are fighting the 33rd all the way to hell
1 thing I dont understand is:Why Walker dont call in cavalry when he first make contact with living people in Dubai?
And the cavalry,Why they dont make coms with walker's team?
So I assumed everyone in command chain are know what will happen when a hot headed soldier like Walker make his way in Dubai.
This is conspiracy of US goverment.

There's no mention of 'peace and eagle'? The 33rd split in two because half of them disobeyed orders, which are the 'Damned 33rd'. Like any other army, the Damned 33rds would've had different squadrons all assigned different orders, but not split into two different branches.

As for why Walker didn't request assistance, it was because he was disobeying orders to 'rescue civilians'. By the point ♥♥♥♥ hit the fan, the storms had gotten much worse, and he was in the middle of fighting the 33rd.

[le creep]

the remnants of the 33rd, motivated by konrad's ideals and organized by their remaining officers and the radioman.

[赤いｎｏｍａｄ]

Originally posted by Lewis:

Originally posted by peepee poopoo:

sounds like they just wanted to make a confusing game more than actually tell a coherent story

Or perhaps you just completely missed the point of an unreliable narrator.

Here's what happened:

The 33rd try to evacuate Dubai after the sandstorms get too much. They fail, people die during the attempted evacuation, everyone's stuck in Dubai. Konrad demands that everyone abandons their orders and stays in order to protect Dubai from total anarchy. Half of the 33rd disagree and demand to leave, they get executed. The new half is the 'Damned 33rd'. The Damned 33rd try to keep people sticking to rations and execute martial law on people who try to steal or don't follow the new rules. The CIA catch wind of this and do their best to cover up the 33rd's failure, arming the rebels who don't like the fact they're being oppressed by the 33rd, hoping that they will kill each other. Konrad kills himself sometime between this after feeling guilt from the chaos he has brought on Dubai.

Walker arrives, Konrad is dead, Radioman is in charge of the 33rd. Walker's squad defend themselves against rebels who think they are 33rd. 33rd starts attacking Walker's Squad, thinking they are CIA. Walker's Squad try to defend themselves and find CIA to save civilians. Walker's Squad ends up lighting civilians on fire in a 33rd camp, Walker gets PTSD and delusions, becomes everyone's enemy but the CIA, and unintentionally helps along the plot to waste all the water in Dubai alongside CIA agent Riggs, leaving the civilians to die and fulfilling the CIA's plan to cover up the failure of the US army. Walker's Squad gets the fallout, Lugo gets hung, Adams gets 33rd'd to death, 33rd get Adam'd to death, Walker either daydreams himself to death, shoots his rescuers and dies, or goes home.

Pretty simple.

You got all correct except one part.

When we begin the game we are in the helicopter section, that's the only part of the game which is real. In that moment the whole of the Delta Operators die, after that it's all Walker's mind trying to make realize himself about the atrocities he has committed. I'm not saying the rest of the game didn't happen, just not in the exact way it is portrayed. That's why a lot of the level designs don't really make a lot of sense or are not super realistic, plus there are a lot of other indicators that it is an hallucination (the circus sign in chapter 5 first has Konrad's face on it, then the regular face; in chapter 8 there's a hanging man in a reflection but when you look he isn't there, etc).
After we reach the helicopter part again (it's important to notice that Walker referencing that he's already gone through this it's not some breaking the fourth wall thing, but him realizing he's stuck in a loop) everything is a product of Walker's mind, that's why this part is the one that makes the least sense. When you separate from Adams and we presume he's getting killed, the 33rd basically has you cornered and they're going to kill you, yet when you reach the skyscraper they surrender? This part is like him getting into hell, his personal hell where he is being forced by himself to realise the horrors he has committed. When we finally reach Konrad we have two options, to accept what we've done, or to keep on denial. If we kill ourselves the game ends, Walker escapes the loop, if we don't Walker will keep going through everything he has done until he is able to understand the reality of his actions. Throughout the game, cutscenes fade either into white (which represents hallucinations), or black (which represent whatever can be considered reality), in the epilogue where we surrender ourselves right before the cutscenes we see white, and when the soldier asks us How did we survive all of this? Walker responds "Who said I did?", being more clear that he didn't survived Dubai, he died during the helicopter accident.

[Lewis]

Originally posted by 9dae7f-1059-4e8e-ba67:

Originally posted by Lewis:

Or perhaps you just completely missed the point of an unreliable narrator.

Here's what happened:

The 33rd try to evacuate Dubai after the sandstorms get too much. They fail, people die during the attempted evacuation, everyone's stuck in Dubai. Konrad demands that everyone abandons their orders and stays in order to protect Dubai from total anarchy. Half of the 33rd disagree and demand to leave, they get executed. The new half is the 'Damned 33rd'. The Damned 33rd try to keep people sticking to rations and execute martial law on people who try to steal or don't follow the new rules. The CIA catch wind of this and do their best to cover up the 33rd's failure, arming the rebels who don't like the fact they're being oppressed by the 33rd, hoping that they will kill each other. Konrad kills himself sometime between this after feeling guilt from the chaos he has brought on Dubai.

Walker arrives, Konrad is dead, Radioman is in charge of the 33rd. Walker's squad defend themselves against rebels who think they are 33rd. 33rd starts attacking Walker's Squad, thinking they are CIA. Walker's Squad try to defend themselves and find CIA to save civilians. Walker's Squad ends up lighting civilians on fire in a 33rd camp, Walker gets PTSD and delusions, becomes everyone's enemy but the CIA, and unintentionally helps along the plot to waste all the water in Dubai alongside CIA agent Riggs, leaving the civilians to die and fulfilling the CIA's plan to cover up the failure of the US army. Walker's Squad gets the fallout, Lugo gets hung, Adams gets 33rd'd to death, 33rd get Adam'd to death, Walker either daydreams himself to death, shoots his rescuers and dies, or goes home.

Pretty simple.

You got all correct except one part.

When we begin the game we are in the helicopter section, that's the only part of the game which is real. In that moment the whole of the Delta Operators die, after that it's all Walker's mind trying to make realize himself about the atrocities he has committed. I'm not saying the rest of the game didn't happen, just not in the exact way it is portrayed. That's why a lot of the level designs don't really make a lot of sense or are not super realistic, plus there are a lot of other indicators that it is an hallucination (the circus sign in chapter 5 first has Konrad's face on it, then the regular face; in chapter 8 there's a hanging man in a reflection but when you look he isn't there, etc).
After we reach the helicopter part again (it's important to notice that Walker referencing that he's already gone through this it's not some breaking the fourth wall thing, but him realizing he's stuck in a loop) everything is a product of Walker's mind, that's why this part is the one that makes the least sense. When you separate from Adams and we presume he's getting killed, the 33rd basically has you cornered and they're going to kill you, yet when you reach the skyscraper they surrender? This part is like him getting into hell, his personal hell where he is being forced by himself to realise the horrors he has committed. When we finally reach Konrad we have two options, to accept what we've done, or to keep on denial. If we kill ourselves the game ends, Walker escapes the loop, if we don't Walker will keep going through everything he has done until he is able to understand the reality of his actions. Throughout the game, cutscenes fade either into white (which represents hallucinations), or black (which represent whatever can be considered reality), in the epilogue where we surrender ourselves right before the cutscenes we see white, and when the soldier asks us How did we survive all of this? Walker responds "Who said I did?", being more clear that he didn't survived Dubai, he died during the helicopter accident.

That's a theory. There are many possibilities and theories as to whether Walker's POV is somewhat reliable, and in many places it isn't. Many of the theories as to what actually happens are as plausible as the others.

That being said, the 33rd at the skyscraper surrender because they are a delusion, something that is confirmed when Walker asks for a radio. I believe Walker's team survived the helicopter crash because it's an action game, and that what the game shows you is what the developers intend for you to believe is real (apart from the delusions that we see). That doesn't mean that I'm right, though.

[Max Hetfield]

Originally posted by Lewis:

Or perhaps you just completely missed the point of an unreliable narrator.

Here's what happened:

The 33rd try to evacuate Dubai after the sandstorms get too much. They fail, people die during the attempted evacuation, everyone's stuck in Dubai. Konrad demands that everyone abandons their orders and stays in order to protect Dubai from total anarchy. Half of the 33rd disagree and demand to leave, they get executed. The new half is the 'Damned 33rd'. The Damned 33rd try to keep people sticking to rations and execute martial law on people who try to steal or don't follow the new rules. The CIA catch wind of this and do their best to cover up the 33rd's failure, arming the rebels who don't like the fact they're being oppressed by the 33rd, hoping that they will kill each other. Konrad kills himself sometime between this after feeling guilt from the chaos he has brought on Dubai.

Walker arrives, Konrad is dead, Radioman is in charge of the 33rd. Walker's squad defend themselves against rebels who think they are 33rd. 33rd starts attacking Walker's Squad, thinking they are CIA. Walker's Squad try to defend themselves and find CIA to save civilians. Walker's Squad ends up lighting civilians on fire in a 33rd camp, Walker gets PTSD and delusions, becomes everyone's enemy but the CIA, and unintentionally helps along the plot to waste all the water in Dubai alongside CIA agent Riggs, leaving the civilians to die and fulfilling the CIA's plan to cover up the failure of the US army. Walker's Squad gets the fallout, Lugo gets hung, Adams gets 33rd'd to death, 33rd get Adam'd to death, Walker either daydreams himself to death, shoots his rescuers and dies, or goes home.

Pretty simple.

This. This is the exact story.

EDIT: Just a small correction. CIA's plan wasn't to cover up what the 33rd did. CIA's Gray Fox plan was to recon and find out what happened after Konrad went no contact, and only after they found the attrocities he did, Riggs changed the mission to cover-up, even though Gould objected.

[Max Hetfield]

Originally posted by 9dae7f-1059-4e8e-ba67:

You got all correct except one part.

When we begin the game we are in the helicopter section, that's the only part of the game which is real. In that moment the whole of the Delta Operators die, after that it's all Walker's mind trying to make realize himself about the atrocities he has committed. I'm not saying the rest of the game didn't happen, just not in the exact way it is portrayed.

This is just a theory.

The signs that you mentioned point towards Walker's underlying mental issues (whatever happened in Kabul that Konrad had to save him and that he doesn't like to talk about).