On repeating weapons

[One Old Soldier]

Maybe it's just me but repeater weapons (especially Henry and Spencer rifles) seem rather garbage for line infantry. They eat up supplies quickly, lack the range of single-shots and lack the accuracy of breech-loaders, I suppose repeater skirmishers might be valuable (or a flanking element built around repeaters) but they seem like one-trick ponies in that regard. Surprising considering how greatly repeating weapons changed warfare, but is this just me?

[pandakraut]

Spencers can work fine but getting enough of them to equip units with them is difficulty in the base game. The game's weapon tooltips are rather misleading see this post for details https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26142-hidden-mechanics-and-weapon-damage-degradation/
or this mod if you want the tooltips fixed.
https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/25750-ui-and-ai-customizations-mod-v16/

[CivWar64]

I've been equipping some cavalry with captured Spencer Carbines--it helps a lot when they are firing into infantry flanks or artillery, since they reload so quickly. (But, as you say, the ammo runs out quickly too).

[Minas Moth]

if I can add my 2 cents here... the only problem why the repeaters aren't as useful in this game is the game mechanics. Historically, Spencer Repeating Rifle (not a repeating Spencer Carbine) had an effective firing range of 500 yards. That doesn't mean you couldn't shoot at the things some 600-700 yards away and do some damage... Also, it used a .52 (13 mm) ammo which was of a lower caliber than rest of the rifles (Springfield used .58 in or 15 mm, Enfield 1853 used .577 in).

Now, what you need to put in the perspective is that historically, during the civil war units rarely shoot at each other at distances more than 200 yards. Therefore, practically every small arms weapon fielded was pretty deadly at those ranges (including repeaters, carbines etc). This is the base of the problem as the game uses range system and the AI is more than willing to shoot at you at max range although doing next to no damage than advance towards your position. As the Spencer Rifle has shorter range than most Muzzle loading rifles you get the problem of how to effectively use them.

On June 24, 1863 during the Tullahoma Campaign in Tennessee Colonels John Thomas Wilders Brigade (The Lightning Brigade) seized Hoover's Gap and held it against Confederate attacks. Also, before the battle of Chickamauga, Lightning Brigade defended the crossing at West Chickamauga Creek. The thing in common to those battles is the fact that Confederates had to push into the Lightning Brigade to drive them out of strategically important position. In such circumstances the shorter range of Spencers was really no factor. But that is not how things work in computer games.

[Hugh de Salle]

Originally posted by Minas Moth:

if I can add my 2 cents here... the only problem why the repeaters aren't as useful in this game is the game mechanics. Historically, Spencer Repeating Rifle (not a repeating Spencer Carbine) had an effective firing range of 500 yards. That doesn't mean you couldn't shoot at the things some 600-700 yards away and do some damage... Also, it used a .52 (13 mm) ammo which was of a lower caliber than rest of the rifles (Springfield used .58 in or 15 mm, Enfield 1853 used .577 in).

Now, what you need to put in the perspective is that historically, during the civil war units rarely shoot at each other at distances more than 200 yards. Therefore, practically every small arms weapon fielded was pretty deadly at those ranges (including repeaters, carbines etc). This is the base of the problem as the game uses range system and the AI is more than willing to shoot at you at max range although doing next to no damage than advance towards your position. As the Spencer Rifle has shorter range than most Muzzle loading rifles you get the problem of how to effectively use them.

On June 24, 1863 during the Tullahoma Campaign in Tennessee Colonels John Thomas Wilders Brigade (The Lightning Brigade) seized Hoover's Gap and held it against Confederate attacks. Also, before the battle of Chickamauga, Lightning Brigade defended the crossing at West Chickamauga Creek. The thing in common to those battles is the fact that Confederates had to push into the Lightning Brigade to drive them out of strategically important position. In such circumstances the shorter range of Spencers was really no factor. But that is not how things work in computer games.

This is spot on , Just to push the point its more about the effective range the Henry was effective at around 150-200 yards but could shoot up-to 400+ with luck the fact that it was easy to load and held 15 shots could have saved a lot of lives in the war if the north had invested in them.

They didn't and went for the cheaper option fearing that the ammo needed to even equip a small brigade would be stupidly expensive, Even after the War they equipped the trap door carbine to cavalry rather than the repeater which cost them dearly at Little Big Horn.

As for the game my own view is the repeater is utterly useless , You need to flank and make sure you don't take casualty's and even then they don't really do any damage just not worth the expense, Your better investing in sniper rifles they totally out perform repeaters.

Just a side-note but the average range in the Civil War was around 70-120 yards and the reason why Buck and Ball was so effective or Smooth-bores , Rifled muskets were totally wasted in the ACW they did not fill their potential at all due to bad tactics and outdated training.

[Minas Moth]

@ Hugh de Salle... Yes, you are correct... Average engagement range was very close indeed... The most important factors for it would probably surprise you. Although most people think that the reason was faulty and outdated Napoleonic tactics, there is much much more to add to the equation.

Napoleonic tactics aside the most important factors were:
1) Lack of vast open areas in North America on which infantry lines could fight at longer ranges. You can't fight if you can't see the enemy at all, and if you walk on him when going out the brush at 75 yards then you fight him then and there,

2) The gunpowder used in ACW was not what we know off today. Most battlefields were covered in it after a few musket volleys. Add some artillery smoke and you have a visual nightmare. Trying to actually aim to something in such circumstances is virtually impossible, you basically level your musket, point it in general direction of "angry looking smoke" on the other side of the field and you fire. Because of this civil war recruits were rarely drilled in aiming. Their drill consisted of loading the musket in 10 steps and then leveling the weapon directly infront of them. And the biggest emphasis was on LEVELING THE WEAPON and most commanders were more worried about their troops overshooting the enemy rather than hitting a barn that was 50 yards to enemies left,

3) One of the most important comes from the first two factors. And at 75 yards when you can't see the enemy there is always a dreadful fear of INCOMING BAYONET CHARGE. Although not many such charges were made during ACW soldiers later witnessed that they feared the DEATH BY BAYONET above everything else. And a brigade of Confederates charging through smoke and closing 50, 25, 15 yards is indeed a terrifying sight.

[Hugh de Salle]

Originally posted by Minas Moth:

@ Hugh de Salle... Yes, you are correct... Average engagement range was very close indeed... The most important factors for it would probably surprise you. Although most people think that the reason was faulty and outdated Napoleonic tactics, there is much much more to add to the equation.

Napoleonic tactics aside the most important factors were:
1) Lack of vast open areas in North America on which infantry lines could fight at longer ranges. You can't fight if you can't see the enemy at all, and if you walk on him when going out the brush at 75 yards then you fight him then and there,

2) The gunpowder used in ACW was not what we know off today. Most battlefields were covered in it after a few musket volleys. Add some artillery smoke and you have a visual nightmare. Trying to actually aim to something in such circumstances is virtually impossible, you basically level your musket, point it in general direction of "angry looking smoke" on the other side of the field and you fire. Because of this civil war recruits were rarely drilled in aiming. Their drill consisted of loading the musket in 10 steps and then leveling the weapon directly infront of them. And the biggest emphasis was on LEVELING THE WEAPON and most commanders were more worried about their troops overshooting the enemy rather than hitting a barn that was 50 yards to enemies left,

3) One of the most important comes from the first two factors. And at 75 yards when you can't see the enemy there is always a dreadful fear of INCOMING BAYONET CHARGE. Although not many such charges were made during ACW soldiers later witnessed that they feared the DEATH BY BAYONET above everything else. And a brigade of Confederates charging through smoke and closing 50, 25, 15 yards is indeed a terrifying sight.

Indeed the charge was still a viable fear weapon although as you stated not many actually came to hand to hand it was rare but charges were quite common.

The smoke factor is of course right and the reason why officers made their men aim low , All the points you make are valid.

Training was a joke in ACW i think it was a Gettysburg they found some 12,000 rifles after the Reb's left both Union and Reb that had been double loaded or more some had up to 6 shots in the barrel.

To be quite honest this happened to me as a serving soldier i has left my gas plug on 0 to reduce recoil and when i needed to use my rifle i had to manually ♥♥♥♥ it to chamber a round as i panicked it just didn't occur to me to check the gas plug until we got back to camp.

I was a professional and still got it wrong but i never made the same mistake twice so i have some empathy for these guys in ACW it must have been even more terrifying for them knowing that you were going into battle time and time again.

[Minas Moth]

@ Hugh de Salle I think the record was something like 12 shots in a barrel... I picked it up somewhere when doing the research but not sure if it was at Gettysburg or somewhere else

[HB]

Original source is a west point manual.

A Course of Instruction on Ordnance and Gunnery for Cadets of the United States Military Academy (1867) by Brevet Colonel JG Benton, p 341:

"...of 27,574 muskets picket up on the battlefield of Gettysburg and turned into the Washington Arsenal, at least 24,000 were loaded. About half of this number contained two charges each, about a fourth contained from three to ten charges each and the balance one charge. The largest number of cartridges found in any one piece was twenty three. In some cases the paper of the cartridges was unbroken and in others the powder was uppermost."

Black power use ment users had to adjust the sights to acount for dropping of, http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OP-nWhUCB0s/S_B9Ef1cRAI/AAAAAAAAAC0/NYuXF-bHjqE/s320/MOA.pngFiring at a target 225 yards away with a Springfield is difficult, you must set your sights at 300 yards, then aim below the targets feet, to hit the target at the chest, with a lateral deviation of 24 inches with no wind, since practicly no one was trained to fire the piece in the first place, only sharpshooters were trained to adjust the sights, everyone else by and large, had them set at 150 in the field, and longer if in trench warfare.

As for repeaters, wilders brigade shot of 3 months munitions in a week of service, ( all the rounds carried at regimental level could be fiired off in 20 mins, as this period in time the volume of munitions on had was beyond the ability of men to carry it for use, and was out of service with repeaters and was re armed as resupply was Div resupply wagons, captured by CS Cavalry, and the spencer factory had other orders to fill as it was a private sale to wilder, and he had to wait his turn.