ACE COMBAT™7: SKIES UNKNOWN

ACE COMBAT™7: SKIES UNKNOWN

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twiggy 2021年10月18日 17時09分
the drones dont really make sense...
technoology is so advanced that humans can make ai drones that can copy human flying yet technology isnt advanced enough to create some sort of emp weapon that disables or scrambles other planes software/hardware which would render the drones useless since theres no human pilot to fall back on?

ok, ai piloting drone sounds good in theory but your aircraft still must adhere to the laws of physics, meaning that yeah a drone doing twirlies all over the place while stopping and accerlating to full at the drop of a ddime sound cool but itd sheer its wings off immediately and would probably just crumble like a tin can and tear itself apart against wind friction, effectively commiting suicide by trying to evade any human pilot, also negating any real world application of an ai drone in a dogfight scenario, even thought dogfighting doesnt really exist anymore nowadays in the real world because of missle and radar tech...

also, the drones should run out of battery or whatever very fast, plus theyd be incredibly heavy since we all know that electric cars weigh a lot more than their combustion counterpart which means they couldnt be as nimble as they are potrayed to be.

finally, drones are just boring as an enemy since theyre not actual things with emotions, it doesnt help that the devs decided to not even give the ai's their own personalities or motivation at the very least..
最近の変更はtwiggyが行いました; 2021年10月18日 17時10分
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paomayo 2021年10月26日 19時46分 
twiggy の投稿を引用:
but the problem is that drones and ai will never replace humans much less do a certain task better than a human could, especially one like flying a fighter jet lol... humans cant even get ai to drive a car through a one way, one mile tunnel ... do you really think they could create an ai that can pilot a fighter jet? i mean they cant even do it in this game either, they have to resort to giving the drone ai's game breaking movement and speed so you cant properly hit them with missiles and keep up with them etc

No one's exactly denying that the human touch would go away. The game, at several points, mentions that and the ethical implications of using armed drones.

Remember: AC7 serves as a warning in regards to humanity's over-reliance of technology. To borrow a comment from the link I suggested to you for further reading:

"The game basically hinted at humanity's over-reliance on technology and how it might be used against us. In that regard, I think it did a really good job.

Was it boring? No.

Mission 2 showed us that technology has come far.

Mission 3 showed us that technology, if it goes too far, will be quite dangerous.

The hectic final part of mission 4 and its ending showed just what these little things can do.

Mission 9 showed how terrible the power of AI can get.

Mission 10 introduced the consequence of giving human cognition to a drone.

Mission 12 showed that the existence of technology shouldn't be taken as a sign to let go of our human nature.

The DLC missions showed us how drones can be used against us by our enemies.

Missions 16-17 proved the point made in mission 12, and added a consequence. They showed how inconvenient it will be if our reliance on technology grows to unhealthy levels.

Mission 19 showed how powerless we can be if we're not careful with technology.

Mission 20 gave us one of the hardest boss fights of the franchise, demonstrating during the briefing that the threat of taking over humanity is within arm's reach. Technology IS replacing humanity, and it intends to continue the war through whatever means it can. It is now thinking for itself, and has decided to tip the tide in its favor. You are the final hope.

Boring? Hah! I'd take this plot over shooting down Pasternak any day! (Nothing against that guy, I just wish he'd had more than two minutes of screen time)

The ones who call this plot boring DON'T SEE!"
twiggy の投稿を引用:
but the problem is that drones and ai will never replace humans much less do a certain task better than a human could, especially one like flying a fighter jet lol... humans cant even get ai to drive a car through a one way, one mile tunnel ... do you really think they could create an ai that can pilot a fighter jet? i mean they cant even do it in this game either, they have to resort to giving the drone ai's game breaking movement and speed so you cant properly hit them with missiles and keep up with them etc
Drones making effective airstrikes are a figment of our imagination, I suppose. Give it 20 or so years and the drones not only will be able to push out regular piloted aircraft, they'll make any human piloting obsolete. Pilots probably will remain to ensure structured command chain and instructional overrides, but that will be it. FFS, twenty years ago there were articles detailing why fluid simulations are an impossibility, or that realistic water surface rendering cannot ever be achieved. Before that we *knew as a fact* that robots cannot and will not ever be able to walk a set of stairs.
Vovin 2021年10月27日 2時33分 
twiggy の投稿を引用:
but the problem is that drones and ai will never replace humans much less do a certain task better than a human could, especially one like flying a fighter jet lol...

This is completely untrue. For one, AI (and specifically machine learning/neural networking) is used everywhere. You've probably used, or otherwise provided data into, ML programs several times in your daily routine. The whole reason why we use machine learning is because it is incredibly more efficient at processing big data sets than people are.

Secondly, there are AI-powered drones in full military service, in several countries, for decades. I'm not just talking about drones operated remotely by human operators either, but rather machines using AI routines to identify and engage targets.

In terms of aircraft alone, loyal wingmen has been an open secret for a long time. If you don't know what that is, it is wingman drone (or multiple drones) that follow around a piloted aircraft in a combat mission. LW missions are to basically extend the capabilities of the controller aircraft, such as carrying out recon, carrying extra ordinance, electronic warfare pods, whatever.

It is rumoured that F-117s had LW aiding them during the NATO-Yugoslavia campaign. It is becoming more common and open now, to the point that new projects are marketed for that role, such as the US-Australian Boeing BATS or Russian Sukhoi S-70 Okhotnik.
最近の変更はVovinが行いました; 2021年10月27日 2時35分
twiggy の投稿を引用:
humans cant even get ai to drive a car through a one way, one mile tunnel ... do you really think they could create an ai that can pilot a fighter jet?
This is the now you're talking about, who to say they can't in the future.
People back then said human couldn't fly, look where we are now?
There's an AI that beats Dota 2 Pros. you tell me if AI can do better than most human.
twiggy 2021年10月27日 21時17分 
Mobius One の投稿を引用:
twiggy の投稿を引用:
humans cant even get ai to drive a car through a one way, one mile tunnel ... do you really think they could create an ai that can pilot a fighter jet?
This is the now you're talking about, who to say they can't in the future.
People back then said human couldn't fly, look where we are now?
There's an AI that beats Dota 2 Pros. you tell me if AI can do better than most human.
humans cant fly though, they use airplanes or flight suits to achieve that and ai can be easily exploited just like any enemy ai from any video game
paomayo 2021年10月27日 23時32分 
twiggy の投稿を引用:
humans cant fly though, they use airplanes or flight suits to achieve that and ai can be easily exploited just like any enemy ai from any video game

Do you remember the famous chess match between Gary Kasparov and Deep Blue (a computer)?
twiggy 2021年10月27日 23時35分 
paomayo の投稿を引用:
twiggy の投稿を引用:
humans cant fly though, they use airplanes or flight suits to achieve that and ai can be easily exploited just like any enemy ai from any video game

Do you remember the famous chess match between Gary Kasparov and Deep Blue (a computer)?
no but most ai seem difficult at first until you realize they all follow a certain programmed routine and most are just reactive to your actions, so you can eventually bait them into behaving how you wish them to
paomayo 2021年10月27日 23時58分 
twiggy の投稿を引用:
no but most ai seem difficult at first until you realize they all follow a certain programmed routine and most are just reactive to your actions, so you can eventually bait them into behaving how you wish them to

I read this article in question. Take a good look when you can:

https://theconversation.com/twenty-years-on-from-deep-blue-vs-kasparov-how-a-chess-match-started-the-big-data-revolution-76882
twiggy の投稿を引用:
no but most ai seem difficult at first until you realize they all follow a certain programmed routine and most are just reactive to your actions, so you can eventually bait them into behaving how you wish them to
I think a military AI might be a little more advanced than the AI in a video game that's coded to let you win easily so you can feel good.
You'd think if they could make advanced drone tech, capable of piloting a supersonic jet fighter. They might be able to program them with sensors and algorithms to know how to not destroy the thing in flight. Drones would be able to maneuver better due to not having their organic body affected by high G.

Batteries aren't an issue. They'd be running off whatever power the jet engine makes like a car and it's alternator. The drones aren't running off some high tech electric motor or anti grav boosters.

EMPs wouldn't really work too well as they're not really directable. Anything you'd fire off would effect not only your craft, but those of your allies around you. Also EMP shielding is also a thing.

Drones would also make better pilots, due to their computing power and expendability. The story they were going for in this anyway is man vs machine. pilot vs drone. the finale even comes to a head where its the remaining pilots of both warring countries coming together to stop the automation process. and the fact they bring up multiple times in game on their opinion of human pilots being more ethical and preferable due to their emotion, humanity, compassion and the creative process of the human mind.

twiggy 2021年10月28日 5時02分 
Cozy With Sarkozi の投稿を引用:
You'd think if they could make advanced drone tech, capable of piloting a supersonic jet fighter. They might be able to program them with sensors and algorithms to know how to not destroy the thing in flight. Drones would be able to maneuver better due to not having their organic body affected by high G.

Batteries aren't an issue. They'd be running off whatever power the jet engine makes like a car and it's alternator. The drones aren't running off some high tech electric motor or anti grav boosters.

EMPs wouldn't really work too well as they're not really directable. Anything you'd fire off would effect not only your craft, but those of your allies around you. Also EMP shielding is also a thing.

Drones would also make better pilots, due to their computing power and expendability. The story they were going for in this anyway is man vs machine. pilot vs drone. the finale even comes to a head where its the remaining pilots of both warring countries coming together to stop the automation process. and the fact they bring up multiple times in game on their opinion of human pilots being more ethical and preferable due to their emotion, humanity, compassion and the creative process of the human mind.
but like whats the point of a non organic flying a jet fighter in a dog fight scenario? theyd still eventually run out of fuel just like a human fighter would and tbh if you somehow ended up in a dogfight situation then something went very very wrong in the first place
Pretty sure it'd be programmed to RTB if it were coming low on fuel. I think you're focusing too much on issues that wouldn't be issues.
Vovin 2021年10月28日 5時31分 
twiggy の投稿を引用:
no but most ai seem difficult at first until you realize they all follow a certain programmed routine and most are just reactive to your actions, so you can eventually bait them into behaving how you wish them to

As I posted earlier, there is a hierarchy of AI. It goes Artificial Intelligence -> Machine Learning -> Deep Learning.

Common AI programs are just simple programs. Machine learning uses at least one neural network, whereas deep learning uses many. This means that the difference between AI and ML is that ML is actually comprehending the data that it is collecting in order to make predictive assessments for unknown variables.

I do data science. We use machine/deep learning techniques.
最近の変更はVovinが行いました; 2021年10月28日 5時32分
Vovin 2021年10月28日 5時39分 
twiggy の投稿を引用:
but like whats the point of a non organic flying a jet fighter in a dog fight scenario? theyd still eventually run out of fuel just like a human fighter would and tbh if you somehow ended up in a dogfight situation then something went very very wrong in the first place

Do you know how many dogfights there have been since the Vietnam War? You could probably count them on one hand. Dogfighting is such an obsolete concept that it is more efficient to design air combat platforms that replace dogfighting capability with other hardware. Most combat aircraft these days are glorified missile trucks whose only mission is to fly ordinance close enough to a target where the ordinance will do the rest after it is deployed.

That doesn't mean that dogfighting is entirely eliminated from doctrines, but it is extremely unlikely that it would ever occur, especially in terms of top tier militaries fighting each other- third world militaries are much more likely to engage in such tactics because they are operating older aircraft that are optimized for it.
Fomin 2021年10月28日 7時54分 
Regardless of whether or not the drones make sense from a purely technical perspective, it gets boring to fight the same robots over and over again.

Fighting robots over and over again feels like dull, low-effort filler whether it's Marvel's Avengers or Ace Combat.

Remember the varied and interesting aces in Ace Combat: The Belkan War? They had their own interviews, in mission intros, and there was even a gallery where you could see them all. Even the more minor aces showed up in the gallery.

https://acecombat.fandom.com/wiki/Ace_Combat_Zero:_The_Belkan_War/Aces

What's more, which Aces you encountered would actually be determined by your play style which gave that game the game a fair amount of replayability since there were three different paths, Knight, Soldier, and Mercenary.

If this game had rich, interesting developed story like Ace Combat 5 and a series of rich, interesting antagonists like Ace Combat: The Belkan War, it could have been incredible!

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2615482547

(Never forget ^ )

Instead we get mission after mission devoted to farming ground forces and fighting the same drones over and over again... :steamsad:

Of course, a lot of the writing in this game is pretty weak compared to the previous games even when it's not drones? Remember that scene in a previous game (it's not on steam) where one of your comrades, whom you have got to know really well, dies protecting civilians? There's a cutscene, sad music everything.

I'm sorry game but killing someone I don't know off-screen isn't a match for that even if the antagonist is human and radio tells me that the scary bad guy is "toying" with some rando like an "apex predator." (I apologize if I got the quote wrong since it wasn't memorable and I don't remember it that well.)

In terms of everything but graphics, this game feels like a pale shadow of the ones that came before it. It doesn't feel like a step forward so much as weak fanfiction.
最近の変更はFominが行いました; 2021年10月28日 8時13分
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投稿日: 2021年10月18日 17時09分
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