Trying to get started in multiplayer is pointless: Discuss

[DaciaSaoirse]

Having played flight sims of varying realism for almost as long as I've been gaming, it's been pretty fun to play through the single-player of my first Ace Combat game.

While far from perfect, it's reasonably fun, but there are only so many times I can re-play campaign missions before I get bored.

So obviously, the next step would be to try the multiplayer, right? Now that I have so much currency from the campaign to buy multiplayer parts, I should be able to last long enough in a match to find my footing, right?

Wrong. I can dodge the near-endless missile barrage, sure - until one of them flips 180 in a femtosecond and insta-kills me - but my own weapons are all completely useless, even on the occasion I manage to launch from about a metre away, one missile will still miss and the one that hits will be about as effective as trying to stabilise a nuclear meltdown with a water pistol.

Now, as much anti-fun as I've had every time I've tried multiplayer, I'm not here *just* to complain. I'd like to know if any of you can think of any good reasons to keep trying, and any suggestions for how not to get frustrated when I come in 8th place for every match and only rarely score higher than 0.

[eEXM-21]

First,

Originally posted by Reggie "Kong" Fils-Aimé:

If it's not fun, why bother?

Second, MP is long dead already
Third, Git Gud™ if you still want to push yourself

[BITMajo]

Are OP using standard controls or expert controls?

If you only use standard controls, you will be able to finish the campaign, but it will be very hard to win a dogfight in multiplayer, because you can only get the full aircraft's mobility with expert controls, standard controls limit your aircraft's movement too much.

Also you have to learn to use "high-g turn", it's a specific movement that can let you turn even quicker by sacrificing some speed.

Go check your control options in game, there's a high-g turn control option under flight system options, default setting is to press both accelerate & decelerate while you are pitching/turning your plane, you can change the control options to only require you to push decelerate, also you can bind a single button that makes you both accelerate & decelerate at the same time if you are using a HOTAS throttle controller.

When you use high-g turn, you will notice three things:
1. There's an extra steamy-like visual effect above your wings.
2. Your speed drops noticeably.
3. You are turning much faster.

Since high-g turn takes away your speed every usage, you will want to always maintain speed, speed is kind of like a currency you can spend in battle. Try to keep your speed at least above 1000 km/h or 540 nmi/h, so you will always have some speed to spend. When you have more speed, you can turn and dodge incoming missiles more easily, with proper speed management and good battlefield awareness, it's even possible to dodge fast & agile missiles such as QAAM, HVAA or LAAM.

Dropping speed is dangerous in multiplayer, you will just become a easy target to others because you are slow, unless you are dogfighting tightly with only 1 opponent and are both trying to overturn each other, it's just not a good idea to fly slow in a chaotic battlefield.

There's a lot of things the game doesn't tell you directly, there are certain tactics and setups that will work relatively well, especially in MP.

Feel free to discuss further if you want to get serious about MP, you probably do have some things to learn.

[Devsman]

Originally posted by DaciaSaoirse:

Having played flight sims of

Topic list

[BITMajo]

As for your missiles being useless, first of all, enhancing their tracking ability makes a great difference.

If you are using standard missiles, equip:
New High-Energy Propellant (MSL) Lv. 2
Thrust-Adjusting Steering Device (MSL) Lv. 2
High-Speed Data Link Antenna
Your standard missiles will preform drastically different comparing to SP.

If you are using special weapon missiles, then it's:
New High-Energy Propellant (Sp. W) Lv. 2
Thrust-Adjusting Steering Device (Sp. W) Lv. 2

Second, even your missiles have great tracking abilities now, it still doesn't guarantee you a successful hit, your enemies can still dodge your missile with the right speed and right angle. You have to fire the missile at a more preferable position, and the position varies from different missiles.

If it's a short range missile, such as standard missile or QAAM, you have to get close and fire from your target's tail. Your target will probably try to dodge and high-g turn to counterattack, do the same and you will both engage in a dogfight. While dogfighting, both planes are trying to aim toward each other ASAP, this makes both planes slow due to intense turning, and it's all about turning at the right time to get the ideal chance to lock on and fire. Though you probably can't get to your opponent's tail in a dogfight, but since both of you are slow during dogfight, the missile's tracking ability does have a chance to hit. Be aware that since you are slow during dogfight, you are also a easy target to bystanders, if you feel that more people are firing at you, Increase speed and break off from dogfight might be a good tactic.

If it's a mid range missile such as 4AAM, it's not good as a dogfighting weapon, try to take advantage of the missile's range and use it as a ambush weapon.

Long range missiles, specifically LAAM, is even more terrible at short range, even you can lock on in short range, you will probably be wasting it. Get BVR and throw it like a javelin.

[DaciaSaoirse]

So... To address some things that have been said while I was asleep:

Originally posted by eEXM-21:

First,

Originally posted by Reggie "Kong" Fils-Aimé:

If it's not fun, why bother?

Because the game has a fun flight model that's more realistic and interesting than anything else I can play without going to the extra effort of getting out my HOTAS.

Originally posted by BITMajo:

Are OP using standard controls or expert controls?

I've only quoted this line to save space, but I'll try to answer everything you said.

I do fly on expert, and I already use high G turns extensively - since those are the only advanced manoeuvre the game itself teaches in any capacity.
The rest of post 1 is basic air combat tactics - understandably since you didn't know my skill level, but for the record I do know that stuff.
The only times I get hit by missiles are when they miss me head-on, then instantly turn and hit me less than a second later, or when I get so frustrated that I just don't bother to dodge and try to use flares instead to let me keep shooting.

As for post 2, the upgrade info is much appreciated, I've been wondering how people set up their missiles to be competitive.
The advice for mid and long range missiles is helpful too, since the only kind of advanced missile use (besides get as close as possible to on their tail, and shoot) that the campaign ever taught me is the boss fights teaching me to wait until I'm not even really using the homing capabilities and just shove the missiles down the boss' throat, on their tail or in a joust. Which is incidentally how I got my only player kill ever in a joust, in combination with filling them with cannon fire the whole way in. That was on PS4 though while the game was on PSNow for awhile, the players there flew differently.

Originally posted by Devsman:

Originally posted by DaciaSaoirse:

Having played flight sims of

Topic list

Not sure exactly what that means, but I'll assume you're asking what games. There's no clean place to draw the line to list separately, so I'll list non-flight-sims that with at least moderately interesting flight stuff too.

Heroes of the Pacific, Battlestations Pacific, IL2 Sturmovik (the original), IL2 Sturmovik: Birds of Prey, WarThunder, Star Wars: Starfighter, Jedi Starfighter, Squadrons, Battlefront 1&2 Classic & EA, Battlefield V and 2042, GTA Online, Elite Dangerous, EVE Warzone.

I only got the chance to fly a few times in the Battlefields or EA Battlefront 1, I stopped playing EVE Warzone pretty quickly because the imprecise controls couldn't be changed, and there are various other games I've tried demos for that didn't grab me enough to remember their names.

[BITMajo]

Originally posted by DaciaSaoirse:

I do fly on expert, and I already use high G turns extensively - since those are the only advanced manoeuvre the game itself teaches in any capacity.
The rest of post 1 is basic air combat tactics - understandably since you didn't know my skill level, but for the record I do know that stuff.
The only times I get hit by missiles are when they miss me head-on, then instantly turn and hit me less than a second later, or when I get so frustrated that I just don't bother to dodge and try to use flares instead to let me keep shooting.

Sorry to bother you with the basics, because I did meet players that have no idea about these mechanics at all, even though they've completed the campaign.

The missiles that do a 180 degree and hits you is likely a tracking enhanced QAAM. Since the QAAM is already the missile with the best tracking ability, further enhancing it will make it even more agile and hit you when you are probably not fast enough to dodge it a second time.

I personally think AC7's multiplayer combat is mostly about unrealistic intense dogfight, so whatever missile I use, I will always enhance it's tracking ability, because landing a successful hit is all that matters.

Unless you are playing on regular missile only matches, it is more important to choose your special weapon first, instead of deciding what plane you're gonna fly., because your special weapon determines the way you will be fighting (though you can also focus on enhancing normal missiles and ditch SP weapons completely).

Therefore, understanding how each SP weapon works is crucial to set up your plane.

For example, if you choose to use LAAM, firing BVR will be your advantage, because LAAM's tracking ability is very bad at close range, but is quite well when it was launched from a longer distance. Naturally, keeping yourself away from other aircraft will be your rule of engagement.

However, your opponents will eventually notice you and try to get close to you to take you down, to deal with this, you can either run or hide. If you choose to run, then Mig-31 will be your best choice, since it's the second fastest plane in AC7 currently, and the fastest one that's able to carry LAAM. You will probably want to enhance your plane's speed even further, so that you are harder to shoot down. Your plane's maneuverability, on the other hand, will not be so important, since you won't be trying to dogfight anyway.

If you choose to hide, then stealth capability is what you need, be aware that others can still detect you if you are close enough, especially when they're facing your general direction.

If you are using close range missiles instead, then your plane's maneuverability will matter, since you will be dogfighting your opponent. Parts that gives you better pitch rate, acceleration and breaking power will likely be beneficial, which one to put on will depend on your aircraft and your preferences.

But what's the difference between HCAA, HPAA, QAAM, and regular missiles, since they are all close range missiles?

Well, we know QAAM is very good at short range tracking, and it's base damage is 80, which is twice the damage comparing to regular missiles that can only do 40. Since average plane's base health is about 120, and the maximum health you can have with enhancement is about 210, this means that no plane can take 3 hits of QAAM even with full health (2 if you've enhanced QAAM's damage over 120 with LV2 parts).

The only problem is, you won't get a lot of QAAM ammo, and even with tracking enhancements, it still doesn't guarantee you a hit, so besides of also enhancing ammo capability, you should make sure every shot counts instead of spamming them arbitrary, even if QAAM is supposed to be the "easy to use missile".

What about HPAA? it's tracking ability is obviously not as good as QAAM, but you can carry a bit more ammo. It's damage power, however, is where it really shines. HPAA have 160 base damage, which can already take out most planes with full health, if you fully enhance it's damage capability, it will take out any plane with one shot even if they've fully upgraded their health points.

Therefore when using HPAA, I would advise not to fire two missiles in a quick session like you are using regular missiles, because one is already enough if it hits, fire the other one a little while later to create a combo attack, that is harder for the enemy to dodge.

Finally, lets talk about HCAA, it's a missile that is overall better than regular missile, but doesn't have any impressive stats comparing to other SP weapons, besides of it's rapid loading speed. This means that although it's not as good as QAAM or HPAA individually, it will quickly reload and provide you more chances to attack, thus giving you another type of advantage.

You see, every type of weapon have it's own unique stats and behave differently, as well as every aircraft, their health, speed, acceleration rate, pitch rate, roll rate, ideal pitch & roll speed... all varies from each others. There's really too much information to discuss in a simple forum post (at least it's beyond my ability), you have to do some research and try it out in multiplayer yourself to get a better picture, and find out what works the best for you.

You can get the plane/weapon stats from a reddit post by googling AC7 stats.

[DaciaSaoirse]

In every other game I prefer fast craft - I even energy fight in the A-Wing in Squadrons - so I'll definitely be looking into the MIG-31 and whatever plane is faster than it.

[BITMajo]

With all MP speed upgrades, the Mig-31's top speed is able to reach 3800 kph , which is nearly too fast for regular missiles to catch up already.

The fastest plane for now is the Darkstar, from the Top Gun Maverick DLC. Her basic top speed is 5550 kph already, far beyond any aircraft even without enhancements.

However, although they are both considered fast, they are not agile or with good maneuverability. To be more straightforward, their turning ability is bad and generally perform poorly in close range encounters.

This is why Mig-31's are often equipped with LAAM instead of other available choices in MP rounds, because hit and run is the most suitable tactic for this aircraft, she's just not good at dogfight.

As for the Darkstar, I haven't bought the TGM DLC yet, so I can't be certain, but her maneuverability is probably even worse then Mig-31. Also, even though she has incredibly fast top speed, her acceleration rate according to published stats are the worst comparing with every other aircraft. This means that once she slows down, she will need twice the time to regain speed.

I've never played Squadrons, but based on my experience from the old battlefront 2 game, A-Wing and other interceptors are both fast and agile, which will probably resemble more to those top tier planes that have overall good stats, such as F-22, Su-57 or X-02S.

Mig-31 & Darkstar on the other hand, are more of a extreme type of aircraft, they are remarkably great in a specific trait, but they also have very obvious flaws, thus preventing them to be too overpowered.

When these two planes maintain their speed as high as possible, they will be quite hard to take down, especially the Darkstar. However, their speed advantage can't be used easily in close range dogfight, and you will pretty much have to rely on ambush tactics to score in MP.

[DaciaSaoirse]

I tried the MIG-31 and got my first two multiplayer kills on PC, so huge thanks already for the advice. :)

I couldn't land a hit at long range though; I got both kills dogfighting, by using the sheer flight speed of the LAAMs to plug them into the enemy's rear when they levelled out for a moment to get their bearings.

So... Given I'd had that much success dogfighting in a speed-specced MIG-31 and not been shot down in the process, I decided to stick with your advice on min-maxing and built an EML dogfighter, then I had enough space left over to max out its speed too so why not?

I've had three matches since then, scored about average in all of them and never got shot down even once in the first.
So thanks for all the advice, I finally have an aircraft I can have fun with in multiplayer, and ideas on how to build an even better one when I have the MRP. :D

[BITMajo]

Huh... that sounds... weird, considering how Mig-31 isn't supposed to be good at dogfight.

Unless your definition of dogfight includes reaching a enemy's rear position while they aren't engaging you yet, and shoot them down before they can react. Personally I won't call that dogfight though, because the enemy is in a relatively passive state at the moment, instead of trying to turn and bite you back, leading both of you into a spinning contest.

Well. congrats on your success anyway, it's a good tactic as long as it works.

You will meet different types of players though, and the same tactic probably won't always work, keep improving your skills, and don't be afraid to try out new methods involving other weapons & planes, you might discover another new favorite set.

Even when launching far away, enemies can still dodge your LAAM's when they are very aware of your existence and only need to focus on you. However, when there's a group of enemies busy doing dogfight, this is your best chance to strike. You can use your high speed to cruse around the map, observe the battlefield, find out the vulnerable targets and fire toward them.

The LAAM is slow and sluggish upon launch, but it's mobility increases every second after launch, and it has a quite good acceleration rate. With enough flying time, it's base max speed can reach 10000 kmh, which is the highest among all missiles.

This is why the LAAM should be fired from afar.

A plane busy in dogfight isn't only slower then usual, but also busy facing their dogfight opponent, this makes them more vulnerable to a sneak attack from a different type of weapon. Fast weapons such as LAAM or HVAA have a good chance to take them by surprise, especially when they are not aware about your existence & weapon type.

Therefore, there are actually more factors when using LAAM, it will be more ideal to use in a chaotic battle royal or a fully populated team deathmatch, not a 1v1 scenario. Unless your enemy is in a dumbstruck state, they can dodge your LAAM if they are aware of your intention and facing you only.

[DaciaSaoirse]

The MIG kills were while engaged in close range turn fights with the targets for half a minute or more, between 600 and 1,000 kph.
As for when I tried from range, it was pretty hard to tell what my targets were doing but when I used the LAAMs, they were near my teammates.

[Jman]

I just wish they added more modes other than player vs player dog fighting. Anyone that had played Ace Combat Infinity had a boat load of different modes which made the game (in my opinion) really fun.

Just the monetization sucked harder than SR-71 Blackbirds intake jets.

[BITMajo]

Originally posted by DaciaSaoirse:

The MIG kills were while engaged in close range turn fights with the targets for half a minute or more, between 600 and 1,000 kph.

That does sounds like a dogfight... so you did take out enemies in dogfight. Maybe try out some other better planes with short range special weapons, such as Mig-29 with HPAA, Rafale M with HCAA, or a QAAM set, you might perform even better in the same situation.

Originally posted by DaciaSaoirse:

As for when I tried from range, it was pretty hard to tell what my targets were doing but when I used the LAAMs, they were near my teammates.

Although I've talked a bunch of principles about how to use LAAM previously like I know this weapon very well, in reality, I still can't be confident about always hitting the target. Usually I just have to keep trying, until I get a lucky shot or two. Perhaps there are more factors that I failed to notice yet, but I do have confidence about my current theory, it won't always work, but it will work out eventually.

[rocketman2305]

I honestly miss the multiplayer experience from AC:AH (except for the quick lock-on, close combat c**p) and from AC: Infinity. It wasn't all dog fighting and there were ground based targets. Even some of the missions/matches were to see which team would destroy the most ground objectives and even with bombers. I never understood why they left out a lot of stuff from Infinity when it was also a base to help build AC7.

[BITMajo]

I never owned a console, so I never get the chance to play infinity. The first AC game I played is actually assault horizon, but back then I wasn't serious about AC, and never tried out it's multiplayer. Ground attack multiplayer missions sounds like a decent game type, another option for every type of players.