Was Black Mesa [spoiler]really destroyed by the nuclear bomb [/spoiler]?

[Tazok]

I was thinking about the plot of opposing force and I realized that it's a bit weird how Black Mesa was destroyed by a nuclear bomb. A lot of the facility is deep underground, where it can be possible to survive a direct nuclear blast. How much of it could really be destroyed? Could some scientists hiding deep within the facility have survived? If the goal was to kill witnesses, I think more witnesses would've died from radiation poisoning and possibly things like electricity going out than the blast itself. The bomb was partially underground, so IIRC that would've been a dirty bomb that causes a lot of radiation rather than the typical airburst with comparatively little. Though Black Mesa was a facility specifically known for dealing with a lot of radioactive substances, so the people there were probably better equipped for dealing with it than anybody else. Thoughts?

[Zytel]

It is likely it was demolished.

Even if the facility is underground the explosion would've likely created tremors that would collapse parts of the facility underground network and the chances for survival for anyone left inside would've gone from "difficult" to "virtually impossible".

If there was anyone left inside then they would be cut off from many means of escape with no more power, no help coming and in that way the facility has been effectively shut down.

[Lofty]

Originally posted by Zytel:

It is likely it was demolished.

Even if the facility is underground the explosion would've likely created tremors that would collapse parts of the facility underground network and the chances for survival for anyone left inside would've gone from "difficult" to "virtually impossible".

If there was anyone left inside then they would be cut off from many means of escape with no more power, no help coming and in that way the facility has been effectively shut down.

Horrible thought eh... and odds are in a real life situation there was probably quite a few people left down there even at the deepest levels :S in complete darkness... not a good way to go, especially with beasties still around that can SEE in the dark >_>.............................. you know this would make a good horror plot for a mod, an office worker stuck in black mesa at the end ofit, all the power is off trying to get out with flash lights, maintenance ladders and kicking down wooden doors lol

[PINGVINATOR TERMOREGULATOR]

The fact that no one makes any effort to return to Black Mesa in Half Life 2 and episodes, it is pretty clear Black Mesa is gone and is no longer relevant to anything

[Lofty]

Originally posted by Zorgλ:

The fact that no one makes any effort to return to Black Mesa in Half Life 2 and episodes, it is pretty clear Black Mesa is gone and is no longer relevant to anything

yes and no. TECHNICALLY neither blue shift nor op force are canon therefore with valve's explanation it is still around, it's just been bombed into oblivion. There would probably still be a lot of the underground infrastructure still be around if in a bad state and unstable, but still very much there..... above ground though? smoke and rubble, dust and echoes lol. Once more you could probably make a good horror mod with someone being teleported back inside the shutdown lambda complex or something imo, or were knocked out for most of what went on and wake up after the event with everything crumbling down on their heads.

[PINGVINATOR TERMOREGULATOR]

Originally posted by Lofty:

Originally posted by Zorgλ:

The fact that no one makes any effort to return to Black Mesa in Half Life 2 and episodes, it is pretty clear Black Mesa is gone and is no longer relevant to anything

yes and no. TECHNICALLY neither blue shift nor op force are canon therefore with valve's explanation it is still around, it's just been bombed into oblivion. There would probably still be a lot of the underground infrastructure still be around if in a bad state and unstable, but still very much there..... above ground though? smoke and rubble, dust and echoes lol. Once more you could probably make a good horror mod with someone being teleported back inside the shutdown lambda complex or something imo, or were knocked out for most of what went on and wake up after the event with everything crumbling down on their heads.

Blue Shift and Opposing Force are canon, if they weren't we wouldn't have Barney in Half Life 2. Also, Marc Laidlaw basically confirmed it himself. Quote:
"There’s pressure for us to set Half-Life 2 at Black Mesa, which a lot of us felt would be creative death; it was important to breed new ground. Nuking Black Mesa was a good way to ensure that we had a way to avoid setting Half-Life 2 there"

[Lofty]

Originally posted by Zorgλ:

Originally posted by Lofty:

yes and no. TECHNICALLY neither blue shift nor op force are canon therefore with valve's explanation it is still around, it's just been bombed into oblivion. There would probably still be a lot of the underground infrastructure still be around if in a bad state and unstable, but still very much there..... above ground though? smoke and rubble, dust and echoes lol. Once more you could probably make a good horror mod with someone being teleported back inside the shutdown lambda complex or something imo, or were knocked out for most of what went on and wake up after the event with everything crumbling down on their heads.

Blue Shift and Opposing Force are canon, if they weren't we wouldn't have Barney in Half Life 2. Also, Marc Laidlaw basically confirmed it himself. Quote:
"There’s pressure for us to set Half-Life 2 at Black Mesa, which a lot of us felt would be creative death; it was important to breed new ground. Nuking Black Mesa was a good way to ensure that we had a way to avoid setting Half-Life 2 there"

Oh fair play, hadn't read that nuking part :O however the naming of barney was NOT gearbox, i mean MAYBE the calhoun part? But the security guard has always had the nickname "barney" ever since HL's first release and before. Even back in the alpha days, his model was named Barney. The only thing tbh we have to thank gearbox for in terms of lore, is eli losing his leg to a bullsquid and that's only because it's in the PS2 version's manual which gearbox made lol... and ya' know what? I could even be wrong about that because that explanation comes from the HL2 beta when Eli was a mad scientist in the wasteland. In a lot of official things Marc has actually said they are NOT canon as they changed a few things from the actual lore. I mean if they were then we'd also have rosenburg as he escaped with barney no? It's also why its left completely vague as to how Barney escaped black mesa in HL2. This is also why Race X has also never turned up again ((they are completely seperate from the Xen forces)).

[Cat]

They're not canon.

[PINGVINATOR TERMOREGULATOR]

Originally posted by Cat:

They're not canon.

They are

[Ikagura]

Originally posted by Cat:

They're not canon.

:summercat2023:

Prove it.

[Cat]

No, they're not.

[PINGVINATOR TERMOREGULATOR]

Originally posted by Cat:

No, they're not.

Source?

[Lofty]

Originally posted by Zorgλ:

Originally posted by Cat:

No, they're not.

Source?

again, laidlaw has even said it because various things get contradicted in canon. For example, if opposing force is canon? Then Gina is outright dead as you find her body in xen on it lol, which then gets further contradicted in Decay if we are also going to call THAT canon too. Another example would be the solo use portal gun.... < that right there contradicts the WHOLE REASON for kleiner's teleporter and getting it working in the first place at the start of 2 because them AND the combine want that tech... and black mesa had it already we just wont mention it lol which then ALSO contradict's portal's messed up time line too. These are the type of things i eluded to in my other post as to why they arn't, and valve left it purposefully ambiguous. Also once more, Rosenburg and the guy in the wheel chair are NEVER mentioned again in canon outside of Blue Shift.

edit from previous post too: ALSO! the nuke going off underground is contradicted from opposing force by laidlaw himself and yes black mesa DID get nuked, but it was nuked from the surface in HIS canon as and I quote ((mentioned in both HL2 and alex)) "we were able to salvage equipment from black mesa for the teleporter" meaning there had to be something still left down there in order for them to take it, once again contradicting the nuke going off underground.... thaat also opens up an entirely new avenue of questions to like how the hell did they get back down there? portals? No way did that take stuff with them when they were escaping, because:

once again if the SINGLE bit of the black guy running away in the manual is true then eli got his leg bitten off while escaping black mesa over a fence by a bullsquid.....or a damned particle ghost WHO KNOWS god i wish the beta had come out XD but anyways I don't think they'ed have the time or even inclination to be dragging out big bits of equipment to make their teleporters almost 15 years down the line, while escaping black mesa either...so! we must assume they got those pieces AFTER "somehow".

Now this one is a bit pedantic I know but it can be counted too, Gonomes. I liked them as a thing don't get me wrong but obviously valve didn't. Think bout it logically ((and valve did at alot of points)). The zombies in ravenholme have been there fore a few years right? Gonomes "evolved" in a matter of a day's time...... so where are the gonomes after op force? :O. They were not put into Alyx either which is also canon, and do you REALLY want me to open up the can of worms that is Hunt down the Freeman? Which valve said was "canon?" XD ITS MADDENING! The whole thing is a fluster cuck of a mess and they should have stuck to the beta V_V.

[PINGVINATOR TERMOREGULATOR]

Originally posted by Lofty:

Originally posted by Zorgλ:

Source?

again, laidlaw has even said it because various things get contradicted in canon. For example, if opposing force is canon? Then Gina is outright dead as you find her body in xen on it lol, which then gets further contradicted in Decay if we are also going to call THAT canon too. Another example would be the solo use portal gun.... < that right there contradicts the WHOLE REASON for kleiner's teleporter and getting it working in the first place at the start of 2 because them AND the combine want that tech... and black mesa had it already we just wont mention it lol which then ALSO contradict's portal's messed up time line too. These are the type of things i eluded to in my other post as to why they arn't, and valve left it purposefully ambiguous. Also once more, Rosenburg and the guy in the wheel chair are NEVER mentioned again in canon outside of Blue Shift.

edit from previous post too: ALSO! the nuke going off underground is contradicted from opposing force by laidlaw himself and yes black mesa DID get nuked, but it was nuked from the surface in HIS canon as and I quote ((mentioned in both HL2 and alex)) "we were able to salvage equipment from black mesa for the teleporter" meaning there had to be something still left down there in order for them to take it, once again contradicting the nuke going off underground.... thaat also opens up an entirely new avenue of questions to like how the hell did they get back down there? portals? No way did that take stuff with them when they were escaping, because once again if the SINGLE bit of the black guy running away in the manual is true then eli got his leg bitten off while escaping black mesa over a fence.....or a damned particle ghost WHO KNOWS god i wish the beta had come out XD but anyways I don't think they'ed have the time or even inclination to be dragging out big bits of equipment to make their teleporters while escaping black mesa either, so we must assume they got those pieces AFTER "somehow".

Firstly, Decay ends before the chapter "On a Rail" and yes, both Gina and Colette are fine at the end of Decay, however Adrian can find her dead body in the chapter Pit Worm's Nest. During that chapter Gordon is already in Xen and considering the fact that between On a Rail and Xen chapters a lot of time has passed, you can already tell something happened to Gina between these chapters and she died but we just didn't see how. The game doesn't owe you an explanation because if Half Life games were like that we would've already known who Gman is at this point.

According to your logic about Rosenberg and Keller, i can also say Half Life 2 is not canon because HECU wasn't mentioned at all. But that's the deal: just because something isn't mentioned in Half Life 2 it doesn't mean it's not canon. Take Magnusson as another example, he wasn't mentioned at all during Half Life 1 but appears as a character in Episode 2 where we learn he was also a scientist at Black Mesa in Gordon's sector. So according to you this means Episode 2 is not canon?
It is pretty safe to assume both Rosenberg and Keller didn't survive the 7 hour war, especially Keller because of his condition. But again, Valve can bring them both back in the future game and tell the story how they survived, just how they did with Barney.

[Lofty]

Originally posted by Zorgλ:

Originally posted by Lofty:

again, laidlaw has even said it because various things get contradicted in canon. For example, if opposing force is canon? Then Gina is outright dead as you find her body in xen on it lol, which then gets further contradicted in Decay if we are also going to call THAT canon too. Another example would be the solo use portal gun.... < that right there contradicts the WHOLE REASON for kleiner's teleporter and getting it working in the first place at the start of 2 because them AND the combine want that tech... and black mesa had it already we just wont mention it lol which then ALSO contradict's portal's messed up time line too. These are the type of things i eluded to in my other post as to why they arn't, and valve left it purposefully ambiguous. Also once more, Rosenburg and the guy in the wheel chair are NEVER mentioned again in canon outside of Blue Shift.

edit from previous post too: ALSO! the nuke going off underground is contradicted from opposing force by laidlaw himself and yes black mesa DID get nuked, but it was nuked from the surface in HIS canon as and I quote ((mentioned in both HL2 and alex)) "we were able to salvage equipment from black mesa for the teleporter" meaning there had to be something still left down there in order for them to take it, once again contradicting the nuke going off underground.... thaat also opens up an entirely new avenue of questions to like how the hell did they get back down there? portals? No way did that take stuff with them when they were escaping, because once again if the SINGLE bit of the black guy running away in the manual is true then eli got his leg bitten off while escaping black mesa over a fence.....or a damned particle ghost WHO KNOWS god i wish the beta had come out XD but anyways I don't think they'ed have the time or even inclination to be dragging out big bits of equipment to make their teleporters while escaping black mesa either, so we must assume they got those pieces AFTER "somehow".

Firstly, Decay ends before the chapter "On a Rail" and yes, both Gina and Colette are fine at the end of Decay, however Adrian can find her dead body in the chapter Pit Worm's Nest. During that chapter Gordon is already in Xen and considering the fact that between On a Rail and Xen chapters a lot of time has passed, you can already tell something happened to Gina between these chapters and she died but we just didn't see how. The game doesn't owe you an explanation because if Half Life games were like that we would've already known who Gman is at this point.

According to your logic about Rosenberg and Keller, i can also say Half Life 2 is not canon because HECU wasn't mentioned at all. But that's the deal: just because something isn't mentioned in Half Life 2 it doesn't mean it's not canon. Take Magnusson as another example, he wasn't mentioned at all during Half Life 1 but appears as a character in Episode 2 where we learn he was also a scientist at Black Mesa in Gordon's sector. So according to you this means Episode 2 is not canon?
It is pretty safe to assume both Rosenberg and Keller didn't survive the 7 hour war, especially Keller because of his condition. But again, Valve can bring them both back in the future game and tell the story how they survived, just how they did with Barney.

That isn't what I ment by never mentioned again. Lets take the inquest that is canon now thanks to alyx that happened just after the black mesa incident and just before the 7 hour war. Rosenburg and Keller are BOTH part of the same project and are just as guilty, however they are again never mentioned after blue shift and were NOT put in to that inquest, which seems like a rather big plot hole to me if they ARE canon. Infact, their place has almost been taken by Dr. Russell Odell in alyx who's name has been rehashed from the cut borealis character of the same name ((who became cubbage in HL2 lol)). Things like that you can put in after, hell both kleiner and eli were technically after thoughts once more. Kleiner at one point in HL2's development was called Dr. Chort and sort of knew who freeman was ((he was part of black mesa but that's it)), and eli Vance was Eli Maxwell a crazy mad scientist on the wasteland. NEITHER of them knew who freeman was really at that stage in the story, only person who did was Barney, they were put in purely so fans would have something to relate BACK to black mesa with. So yeah people like kleiner, vance and magnesson we can count as after thoughts and pushed into the storyline down the line, but i find it very strange to not go over people like rosenburg being left out of ALL the new canon when again, hes just as guilty as everyone else on the project on breen's eyes. That kind of thing should not be over looked.

Once more I think the miniature portal gun should also be used as something as an example of why op force is not canon. NONE of the scientists who were created for HL2 knew of its existence, it would contradict the whole point of kleiner trying to create a small local based teleportor when once again black mesa already had it lol Now yes ending of op force shows Shepard with the only prototype.... but no one in black mesa knew about it? not kleiner? Eli? When that is EXACTLY what they and indeed the combine wanted? The combine also have all of black mesa's reasearch on file and should therefore have THAT.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Lofty:

Originally posted by Zorgλ:

Source?

again, laidlaw has even said it because various things get contradicted in canon. For example, if opposing force is canon? Then Gina is outright dead as you find her body in xen on it lol, which then gets further contradicted in Decay if we are also going to call THAT canon too. Another example would be the solo use portal gun.... < that right there contradicts the WHOLE REASON for kleiner's teleporter and getting it working in the first place at the start of 2 because them AND the combine want that tech... and black mesa had it already we just wont mention it lol which then ALSO contradict's portal's messed up time line too. These are the type of things i eluded to in my other post as to why they arn't, and valve left it purposefully ambiguous. Also once more, Rosenburg and the guy in the wheel chair are NEVER mentioned again in canon outside of Blue Shift.

edit from previous post too: ALSO! the nuke going off underground is contradicted from opposing force by laidlaw himself and yes black mesa DID get nuked, but it was nuked from the surface in HIS canon as and I quote ((mentioned in both HL2 and alex)) "we were able to salvage equipment from black mesa for the teleporter" meaning there had to be something still left down there in order for them to take it, once again contradicting the nuke going off underground.... thaat also opens up an entirely new avenue of questions to like how the hell did they get back down there? portals? No way did that take stuff with them when they were escaping, because:

once again if the SINGLE bit of the black guy running away in the manual is true then eli got his leg bitten off while escaping black mesa over a fence by a bullsquid.....or a damned particle ghost WHO KNOWS god i wish the beta had come out XD but anyways I don't think they'ed have the time or even inclination to be dragging out big bits of equipment to make their teleporters almost 15 years down the line, while escaping black mesa either...so! we must assume they got those pieces AFTER "somehow".

Now this one is a bit pedantic I know but it can be counted too, Gonomes. I liked them as a thing don't get me wrong but obviously valve didn't. Think bout it logically ((and valve did at alot of points)). The zombies in ravenholme have been there fore a few years right? Gonomes "evolved" in a matter of a day's time...... so where are the gonomes after op force? :O. They were not put into Alyx either which is also canon, and do you REALLY want me to open up the can of worms that is Hunt down the Freeman? Which valve said was "canon?" XD ITS MADDENING! The whole thing is a fluster cuck of a mess and they should have stuck to the beta V_V.

Well said.