Episode 3 Ending Discussion *SPOILERS AHEAD*

[BarncatAUD]

So, let's discuss the ending to the third episode.

I'm probably going to have the unpopular opinion here, so I'll just say it: The reveal was extremely disappointing.

When episode 2 had ended, I thought that the Children of Arkham story arc was a great, new way to take Batman. And what had me most anticipated for the next episode was the big reveal of who the leader was. I mean, it had to be something big, right? After all, this was a person who had managed to assemble an army of mercenaries, tear down the Wayne's name and legacy, bring Gotham down to it's knees, psychologically destroy Harvey Dent, and start a revolution that would change the city forever. And, who was the big villain behind the mask?

It's Vicki Vale.

Don't get me wrong, It's not like I'm against them going against traditional story arcs. I like that they make Thomas a ruthless, underhanded businessman instead of a kindhearted philanthropist. I like that Joe Chill was an assassin rather than a random mugger. I like that Oswald is a charming deciever rather than a nasty mob boss. That's all fine. But here, making her the main villain, is where I draw a line.

Why here, you may ask? Well, here's the main issue: She's useless. In every appearance she's had, from her random cameos in the comics, to her damsel in distress roles in Tim Burton's Batman and Arkham City, she's never had much of a purpose. She's just there to be the stereotype reporter or the stereotype damsel. As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of Vicki Vale. She's never been important in the comics and she's never really clicked as an important character. She's just kinda... there. You know, off to the side doing reporting stuff and getting curved by Batman from time to time. She's just never had the personality or following to be a main character

And that might also be the problem; it's just not clicking for me. Like, Oswald's portrayal clicks. Thomas Wayne's portrayal clicks. But saying "Vicki Vale: Criminal Mastermind Terrorist" out loud just doesn't feel right. "The Final Battle: Batman vs Vicki Vale" doesn't sound right, either.

Going back on it, it does seem like they were building up to it. And to Telltale's credit, it was a pretty unexpected reveal with a very clever build up. But, at the same time, it still just doesn't work. It's hard to see Vicki as a major threat when she's always either been doing useless reporting or in need of rescuing. It's like that theory that Jar Jar Binks is the major sith lord (We've all see that). Like, it works and it might have been the end payoff, but would it have worked to hear "Jar Jar Binks: Evil Sith Mastermind"?

I don't know. What do you guys think? For me, it's just not working

[Galloglaigh]

I loved this episode, as someone who was never intrested in Batman beofre the Arkham games. The only negatives I've seen are about poor performance (which is a fair assesment, the stuttering got bad early in this episode) or from comic readers who are dissapointed with the direction Telltale is taking with these characters; to the latter I say 'why?' Telltale is going thier own direction when most other mediums are critisided for simple rehashes of the traditional Batman story. Remember that, in this game, you are Bruce Wayne/Batman; you have control over his character and his morals, you don't have to do what the comics demand, the same goes for other characters.

If you want to enjoy this game, don't think about other 'Batman' titles, come to the game with an open mind for every character.

[That Guy]

It could also be Clayface, it's a probability

[Versalico]

Vicky being the culprit was unexpected, but it was obvious there was something fishy with her. She always was one step ahead of everyhting, she conveniently managed to escape from Penguin on episode 2, yet they give her an interview... Moments later the children of arkham leader knows Batman is in the place Vicky led him to... I thought she was untrustworthy right from the start

[BarncatAUD]

Originally posted by Gallóglaigh:

If you want to enjoy this game, don't think about other 'Batman' titles, come to the game with an open mind for every character.

I always go into a game with an open mind. But, you can't just ignore the previous titles with a franchise like Batman. When a character has been around for that long and the general idea of the character has been beaten into your head, it's hard to ignore.

You can make some pretty big changes while keeping the overall picture of the character. For all the changes they brought to Penguin, he's still a ruthless Wayne-hating businessman. They're two very different penguins (Cunning vs Nasty), but they both still feel like a Penguin type.

You can also make big changes if the Character hasn't much of a base to build on. Thomas Wayne, for example. We never get much on him at all, only that he's a billionaire and he loves his son. There's plenty of room there to fill up with any story, such as him getting his money through hideous and illegal ways. (I know there was Flashpoint, but those are two different dimensions).

Now, let's look at Vale. She's already an established character, having been featured prominently in many of comic books and other Batman stories since the 40's. Whether she was a main feature (Tim Burton's Batman), a side character (Arkham City), or a minor cameo, she's always retained that nosy, headstrong reporter type. Vale is an established character, even if that established character is weak in my opinion.

And now we're supposed to buy the damsel reporter as a terroristic gotham-hating monster who can fight toe to toe with Batman, engineer a chemical that can attack the moral-decision part of the brain, assemble a massive mercenary army, murder hundreds of gotham citizens and politicians, send Harvey into a pit of insanity, and somehow just go under the rouse of a reporter?

It's just nonsense to make such a massive jump and a massive change to an established character. You're asking Batman and Telltale fans to swallow the massive pill that the person who has been a useless reporter for 70-80 years, and pretend that all of that "never happened". Nooo, Vicki Vale was never that! She's always been a cold-hearted terrorist!

It just doesn't work. Some things work, and some things don't. This does not.

[BarncatAUD]

Also, if Telltale was going for the big reveal that it was an ally that was close to Batman/Bruce Wayne, why didn't they go with Jim Gordon? I mean, think about it:

- He's always wanted to bring justice to Gotham by any means. What better way to do that than cleaning out the corrupt politicians and corrupt crime families with a revolution?

- He's the commisioner of the police. He could easily have ties to get that drug and get the dirt on the Waynes. Police Commisioner would be a much easier job to build this revolution instead of reporter.

- We already know he's a very skilled fighter. He can fight toe to toe with a lot of Batman's rogue gallery, as well as a plethora of common thugs. And he's seen batman fight, he's watched him, so it'd make sense that he'd be watching his moves and figuring how to beat him.

- He could have built that mercenary army by brokering deals with the criminals and thugs that fell into Arkham and Blackgate, easily.

- As said earlier, he's willing to get rid of crime in anyway possible. Which could include injecting Montoya so she would off one of the most dangerous crime bosses in the world and murdering the corrupt mayor on live TV.

- It'd make sense for him to do this, because he's been through a lot. As the police commisioner, he's been targeted a lot by the rogues gallery. He's been tortured, kidnapped, beaten, shot, and so on by just about everyone. Hell, he was the target of the most savage torture scene in the history of DC Comics (The Killing Joke). It'd be understandable if he snapped and went to dark places to get rid of the crime in gotham.

I know it's not a strong story right now, but I think it sure beats random reporter being the main villain.

[Yistaan]

Originally posted by DB Baxter | trade.tf:

You can also make big changes if the Character hasn't much of a base to build on. Thomas Wayne, for example. We never get much on him at all, only that he's a billionaire and he loves his son. There's plenty of room there to fill up with any story, such as him getting his money through hideous and illegal ways. (I know there was Flashpoint, but those are two different dimensions).

Now, let's look at Vale. She's already an established character, having been featured prominently in many of comic books and other Batman stories since the 40's. Whether she was a main feature (Tim Burton's Batman), a side character (Arkham City), or a minor cameo, she's always retained that nosy, headstrong reporter type. Vale is an established character, even if that established character is weak in my opinion.

And now we're supposed to buy the damsel reporter as a terroristic gotham-hating monster who can fight toe to toe with Batman, engineer a chemical that can attack the moral-decision part of the brain, assemble a massive mercenary army, murder hundreds of gotham citizens and politicians, send Harvey into a pit of insanity, and somehow just go under the rouse of a reporter?

It's just nonsense to make such a massive jump and a massive change to an established character. You're asking Batman and Telltale fans to swallow the massive pill that the person who has been a useless reporter for 70-80 years, and pretend that all of that "never happened". Nooo, Vicki Vale was never that! She's always been a cold-hearted terrorist!

It just doesn't work. Some things work, and some things don't. This does not.

I don't think Vicki Vale's change is that much different from what Telltale did to Thomas Wayne. Being a reporter in the DC Universe doesn't automatically mean you can't be a lot more powerful beneath the surface. Other fictional works have this suspension of disbelief--where does Senator Palpatine get the time in his political schedule to train Darth Maul, do Sith and lightsaber training, etc?. If we weren't have told back in the original 1976 Star Wars novelization that he becomes Emperor, a lot of the arguments people are making against Vicki being a villain could be made against him.

Same goes for Clark Kent (conveniently in the same DC universe with Batman). If it weren't established from the start that he's Superman, a reveal that Superman = Clark Kent might inspire the same shock/disbelief some are having with Telltale Vicki now.

Characters evolve and change. For all we know, Bob Kane and Bill Finger (who invented Vicki), if they were alive, might feel this direction an interesting one. Maybe not, we just don't know now. DC (who owns the Batman franchise) gave the OK for Telltale to take this route with Vicki. And if they don't have the say on how a character "should" be portrayed, then who does?

Batman's original character was more violent (he killed Alfred Stryker in Detective Comics #27), yet he also had a more jovial personality for a long period of time (exemplified in the 1960s tv show with Adam West, which also paralleled the tone of the comics at the time). Yet Batman himself went through changes (he now does not kill, yet also has a more brooding personality than his longtime demeanor in the 1960s).

A lot of the traits the Batman characters are known for now came from experimentation with their characters, just as Telltale is doing now (Jason Todd was a much less angsty character pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths). Telltale is just continuing that experimentation.

[BarncatAUD]

Originally posted by Yistaan:

DC (who owns the Batman franchise) gave the OK for Telltale to take this route with Vicki. And if they don't have the say on how a character "should" be portrayed, then who does?

There's a lot of questionable portrayals of characters that DC has okayed recently:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_52

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_v_Superman:_Dawn_of_Justice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lantern_(film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad_(film)

[shinmalothar]

I wouldn't focus so much on how the characters appear in the comic universe, this is clearly a standalone story with significant changes over the known canon.

Vicki Vale has alluded to being affected by what Thomas Wayne was doing at Arkham (parents possibly a victim etc.) and it's possible that in this story, Vicki's backstory might run parallel to Bruce's (both lost parents when they were young, both secretly trained to avenge them etc) or something like that.

[Astrobot? I love that guy!]

I'm okay with the ending. Vikki being evil was a cool unexpected twist. I'm totally cool with it. What I am less cool is the pointlessness of your choices. This will likely be the last Telltale game I play unless they actually change their system and allow for some real consequences and story line changes. I understand why they do what they do at the price they sell their games at. But I can't find the point in it any longer. I'd be willing to pau $50 for a game with some real substance to the choices. As of now, I'll finish Batman and likely not buy another one. It was a fun ride with Walking Dead, Wolf Among Us, Borderlands, Batman, etc. But I think I'm tapping out.

[Bern]

Originally posted by Astrobot? I love that guy!:

I'm okay with the ending. Vikki being evil was a cool unexpected twist. I'm totally cool with it. What I am less cool is the pointlessness of your choices. This will likely be the last Telltale game I play unless they actually change their system and allow for some real consequences and story line changes. I understand why they do what they do at the price they sell their games at. But I can't find the point in it any longer. I'd be willing to pau $50 for a game with some real substance to the choices. As of now, I'll finish Batman and likely not buy another one. It was a fun ride with Walking Dead, Wolf Among Us, Borderlands, Batman, etc. But I think I'm tapping out.

its a $20.00 game and you expect grand scale choices of something out of a tripleA dev team, thats just not possible with the money they put into makeing it.

[SpartanWolf]

I don t really believe it, but it s still possible that Lady Arkham isn t the true Vale and another Twist is coming.

[Rhapsodos]

Does Vicki know that Bruce is Batman? I figured she did because she said during the drugging that Bruce knew Cobblepot was the Penguin.

Side note: if someone does know his identity, there are 3 ways this always ends. The person dies, the person suffers memory loss, or the person does a heel-face turn. No one ever does the big reveal, except for Injustice Superman via Twitter.

[SpartanWolf]

Hmm, i don t think Vicki knows that Bruce is Batman. The children just wanted to remove Bruce from the bill.
Now that you say it. You remember the talk with her about the attacker of Falconi ?.
Shouldn t she knew that if she stood behind it ?.
Of course it could be a lie or a mask, but i really begin to think that something is fishy here.

[NCometN]

What if i make every single choices to prevent irritating Dent(not get laid with catwoman,save him instead of CW).Will Dent still be aggressive toward Burce in EP04,or will him prevent Burce from being arrested and send to arkham asylum?Just curious.

[Ravagexe]

Ha-ha Vicki fu****ing Vale.
This has to be the most ret****rded Batman fanfic I've ever read in a while. Thou surely they will come up with "Random villain kidnapped actual Vale and took her identity!" excuse.

Now I know this is a more realistic approach but they could've simply used Clayface for all this randomness. Jesus please wont let this end up as Lady Arkham Vale vs Batman. There isnt even any explanation for why she kicked Batman's ass in train station so hard back there, its just randomly generated bullcrap.

This is so such stupid writing and misplaced characters. No-deformed Penguin, why not just use freaking RIDDLER? All you lack was the cliche family relationship right? This whole plan could've worked with Riddler easily.

And yet...D-Grade side character that barely appearing in comics Vicki Vale suddenly becomes a villain? Why not just use freaking BANE? Could always used him as a neutral character only to reveal himself as the villain.

I hope we can get an after-credits scene at ep5 where Alfred reveals his true identity as actual villain pulling the strings behind.