"Milling" or Discarding from top of Library

[sharang2]

Electric element attacks and Pierce Shot remove 1 or 2 cards from the top of the opponent's library. Seeing as how decks are cycled, how does this make any difference? Doesn't this inherently have less use than just putting on a debuff like Ignite or Weakened? Additionally, don't I run the risk of milling an opponent into something like Shake Off; which puts me at a disadvantage?

I think the mechanic of 'discard from top of deck' needs to be seriously looked at, because it seems like all downside for the user. As is, I am incentivized not to use these cards, and when an opponent uses them on me I am often given the advantage due to effects like Indomitable.

[nerdook]

Since the decks automatically cycle, milling effects aren't meant to be like in Netrunner or Magic where it hastens the opponent's death. Instead, it kicks a card off the top of the deck, which can't be played until the next reshuffle.

Triggering an on-discard effect is a downside, yes, but hitting a Roar or Fly off the top of the deck (or Dark Curse, or Enough) can change the outcome of a battle as well.

[msilbey]

I agree milling can do more harm than good and it's effect is minimal.

A few more positive things- it helps cards that count up discard piles (ravens is the only one I know of- milling from the opponent increases their damage) and give information- more for expert players but even a pretty new player would recognize an opportunity if he/she mills an "enough!" card.

There's a lot of future potential for these type of effects though.

[sharang2]

Originally posted by nerdook:

Since the decks automatically cycle, milling effects aren't meant to be like in Netrunner or Magic where it hastens the opponent's death. Instead, it kicks a card off the top of the deck, which can't be played until the next reshuffle.

Triggering an on-discard effect is a downside, yes, but hitting a Roar or Fly off the top of the deck (or Dark Curse, or Enough) can change the outcome of a battle as well.

That's not how milling works. This is an age old argument held with MTG players who wrongfully interpret mill - hitting a 'good card' is no more likely than hitting a 'bad card', resulting in an equal chance of pushing an opponent further or closer to the card they need to be. You can't rely on the mill effect to do anything USEFUL, since it's fifty/fifty by nature; and there's a chance it does something HARMFUL to you, the user, in a game where you try to reduce variance (like in all Roguelikes).

So, if there's a 50/50 chance I push my opponent (Temporarily! until the next cycle!) into or away from his next Roar; and a non-negligable chance that I'll ♥♥♥♥ things up and mill an Indomitable, I'll basically never be using the electric element attacks when I can use other elements (always upside > chance of downside). This is the age old "Thought Scour my opponent" argument - it ♥♥♥♥♥ you when they're running Snapcasters, and milling doesn't actually win you the game.

If you're looking for suggestions on replacements for this effect, I would say two places are reasonable to start: Drain 0-1-2 AP on electric elemental attacks to keep it generic but disable-based, or mill YOURSELF, so that if you DO have Indomitable, you have a chance of upside, which represents the stochasticity of electricty well (chance it'll charge you up!). The prior allows you to maintain the "electrical disruption" elements, the latter allows for intersting Cleric/Barb/Knight mill-tanking strategies.

Finally - unrelated, but you seem to be active here - I found a bug where rank 3 of Defend says it prevents 7 damage on the tooltip, but the icon says 9. May want to figure that out.

[nerdook]

Oh yeah, I fixed the Defend text yesterday. Will be up with the new update. And... the new necromancer will be all about milling and discard piles. :D

[sharang2]

I suppose that marginally strengthens a few cards; but again, without synergy payoffs as good as the 1 AP Crow, there's no point to mill over playing ignite/weaken. That being said, I'm excited to see what Necromancer look like, and hopefully it has interesting synergies with mill as-is.

[msilbey]

I agree with you, sharang2

[msilbey]

just played an assassin, forgot to equip anything and died- but seeing it's trap card made me think, maybe that should be activated on discard too?

[nerdook]

it activates on draw, so before you discard anything, it's already triggered.

[msilbey]

i mean it activates when milled from deck- just a thought

[Sniglett]

I agre that mill is a weak 50/50, have always thought that. What if milled cards retained a static charge that dealt low damage when drawn and moderate damage when played?

[nerdook]

I've revamped how milling works, now Pierce Shot lets you pick which of the top cards to discard, giving you a lot more control over the battle.

[Mitch Rocks]

Originally posted by sharang2:

Originally posted by nerdook:

Since the decks automatically cycle, milling effects aren't meant to be like in Netrunner or Magic where it hastens the opponent's death. Instead, it kicks a card off the top of the deck, which can't be played until the next reshuffle.

Triggering an on-discard effect is a downside, yes, but hitting a Roar or Fly off the top of the deck (or Dark Curse, or Enough) can change the outcome of a battle as well.

That's not how milling works. This is an age old argument held with MTG players who wrongfully interpret mill - hitting a 'good card' is no more likely than hitting a 'bad card', resulting in an equal chance of pushing an opponent further or closer to the card they need to be. You can't rely on the mill effect to do anything USEFUL, since it's fifty/fifty by nature; and there's a chance it does something HARMFUL to you, the user, in a game where you try to reduce variance (like in all Roguelikes)..

Actually, chance to hit a good or bad card depends on how many are in the deck, and knowledge of the deck can be obtained.
Slimes always have engulf, three I believe, and the longer they don’t use it, the more you know it has to be stuck in their now shrunk deck.

50/50 is false. Unkike in magic, you can learn the contents of the decks as you fight opponents, knowing that as the deck shrinks without use of key cards, they must still be in either the deck or in the current hand.

Also, what fun is a game without a little gamble?

[sharang2]

Originally posted by nerdook:

I've revamped how milling works, now Pierce Shot lets you pick which of the top cards to discard, giving you a lot more control over the battle.

Ho-lee ♥♥♥♥. Now we're talking. I'm loving this!