TinyTinkerTank :: Review for The Thrill of the Fight

[Ian (Sealost)]

Thanks for the video! It helps to see things in action.

One problem I see right away is that your play space is smaller than what I list as supported on the store page. The game is designed around a 2m front-to-back minimum, because that allows you and the opponent to stand outside of each others' range. It allows for some "squaring off" and outboxing instead of just being stacked on top of each other swinging all-out. It also makes it hard for the AI to swing accurately when you're that without getting tangled up with you. This alone really will make a huge difference, and it's why I try to be as up-front as possible that you need 2m of space to play in.

Compare your fight to this guy's, where there is more room:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFtpTTkk-_4

Even with the extra space, you could still pin the opponent in the corner and throw a barrage of punches at them, but the reason that you wouldn't is because it's not as effective as other approaches and is very tiring. Your blows do lock the opponent down and make it harder for them to swing back at you, and you can eventually wear the opponent down this way to start getting knockdowns, but it's not really intended to be the go-to way to play.

Instead, the damage system is designed around more highly damaging hits being much more important than just throwing a large number of hits. This is also why weak points are so important. A single straight punch directly to the front of the opponent's face can hurt, but generally won't cause much permanent damage. By comparison, a hook directly to the side of the opponent's jaw can knock them out in one hit. If your hit is too light (solid blue splash), it won't count for anything at all, even if you land a million of those hits (and so setting the Opponent's power to 50% would make him completely unable to hurt you). Those are the rules the AI is playing by and expecting you to play by, so you two are essentially playing completely different games. That's why the AI is throwing far fewer hits, but they seem very effective. That's what the game is expecting you to do as well.

"High damage" isn't just meant to mean "hard swing", either. If you want it to be that way, you need to manually increase the multiplier. Otherwise, you're really expected to be focusing on those weak points to get much done.

Another important thing to note is that when I said that the opponent can't do any more damage to you than you do to them, that only applies to 8 of the 10 opponents. Duke and Moneymaker hit 5% harder than you and take 3% less damage (so technically, they hit ~8% harder than you can hit them). Duke is like that because that's his gimmick. Moneymaker is like that because he has the gimmicks of all the other boxers combined, and is meant to be an extremely challenging fight as the championship match.

Maybe make the player character moan or breath out forcefully when hit? There's also a different sound I think depending on what is hit.

When you get hit, there's a loud "thud" sound and your screen flashes white. If it was a light hit, the flash is only around the edges of your vision. If it's a damaging hit, your whole screen flashes bright white. If you take an especially damaging hit, your character moans, and you'll likely see the dizzy effects and vignette as well.

If you block, you'll generally hear the same sound that plays when you punch into the opponent's block. Sometimes you don't get a sound because touching your arm to their arm to block doesn't play the sound effect. When you're up close to the opponent, this will often happen on accident.

It just seems a bit stupid having two boxers both guarding and dodging and only occasionally attacking. In my mind I'm like: "He's not attacking so I should attack where he isn't guarding!".

I think this is a fine mindset to have, but try amending it to be "He's not attacking so I should attack where he isn't guarding, but I should also make sure the swing I take is likely to be a swing that will matter because swinging puts me at risk of getting hit by the opponent and tires me out"


One other really important thing: There's a bug in the current version of the game (now fixed on the game's beta branch) that makes it so if you lose a round because the opponent scored more knockdowns than you, but you had more damage scored, then the Score Details screen will highlight your damage when it should be highlighting their knockdowns instead. So in your post-match at the end, instead of your damage values being highlighted for the first three rounds, his knockdowns should have been highlighted instead.

[damu]

I made another test by now. Sadly it didn't record because I ran out of disk space...

One problem I see right away is that your play space is smaller than what I list as supported on the store page. The game is designed around a 2m front-to-back minimum, because that allows you and the opponent to stand outside of each others' range.

I made it much bigger before my new test (now 2.5mx1.9m) and it didn't change much besides the AI backing up if it has space or being stuck in a corner. It would get out of the corner maybe twice per round and be stuck in the next corner withing seconds. Even when I was playing more passively. When I stood in a corner intentionally giving it space to move it just gives the AI space to back up which i don't really want I think.

The second thing that I tested was power. I fought against the guy from Mexico (before Spider) and he knocked me out with around 4-5 hits, both when I don't guard at all and when I guard. Then I set my custom multiplier to 1.4x and could also KO him in around 4-5 good hits (mostly yellow ones I think). I only tried 1.4x but we seemed to have a similar power.

In the video that you linked the player is also much more active (see scoreboard) but the AI hits much harder than he does it seems.

If your hit is too light (solid blue splash), it won't count for anything at all, even if you land a million of those hits

Ah I didn't know that. In the test dummy critical hits only give a bonus of usually up to 15% which doesn't sound like much of a difference. This probably should be made much clearer in the game because I assumed kind of a linear health bar where 15% isn't much.
In my test today I aimed more for weakspots and even got a bunch of yellow on Moneymaker and several orange on the guy from Mexico before that. I forgot about the weakspots at the upper head, they are much less guarded than the chin. I also noticed one weakspot on the right side of the dummy, I guess that's for liver hits.
With my 1.4x multiplier I was clearly weaker than Moneymaker but we managed to KO each other once each in the first two rounds and I got him another time in the third round which ended the match somehow. My first non-technical KO. On the scoreboard I won the first two rounds as well.

I have to rest and watch some real matches before making more tests. I still think that the automatic adjust makes me way too weak compared to the AI creating the effect that they down me in one combo whereas I have to slowly wear them down even with yellow hits. I want to do another test with more aggressive but less powerful AI, maybe that creates a more balanced match.
I think you are too much relying on the player getting physically exhausted when he attacks constantly. I'm far from in shape and even I can keep them quite locked if I slow down a bit like I tested today. Maybe the AI should try to attack when the player attacks more often so that big hooks to weakspots are more risky because they keep the player so open.

[Ian (Sealost)]

Originally posted by TinyTinkerTank:

I made it much bigger before my new test (now 2.5mx1.9m) and it didn't change much besides the AI backing up if it has space or being stuck in a corner. It would get out of the corner maybe twice per round and be stuck in the next corner withing seconds. Even when I was playing more passively. When I stood in a corner intentionally giving it space to move it just gives the AI space to back up which i don't really want I think.

One big benefit is that you also have room to back up, which you can use defensively if needed.

Originally posted by TinyTinkerTank:

This probably should be made much clearer in the game because I assumed kind of a linear health bar where 15% isn't much.

Yeah, in fact there are no health bars at all. It's all about being able to do enough damage to reach those important thresholds, like the amount it takes for your hit to hurt at all, the amount it takes to dizzy your opponent (and the harder you hit past that point, the more you dizzy them), or the amount it takes to floor your opponent in one single hit (and the harder you hit past that point, the more likely they will be to stay down for the count). 15% is actually a huge amount difference. Even 5% is a noticeable difference, which is why Moneymaker is noticeably stronger than most of the rest of the roster. He and Duke are specifically meant to be like that, though, so the strength comparisons are more meaningful when looking at any of the rest of the roster.

Originally posted by TinyTinkerTank:

I think you are too much relying on the player getting physically exhausted when he attacks constantly. I'm far from in shape and even I can keep them quite locked if I slow down a bit like I tested today. Maybe the AI should try to attack when the player attacks more often so that big hooks to weakspots are more risky because they keep the player so open.

It used to be harder to lock the opponent down through constant punching than it is now, but I was getting negative feedback that the opponent seemed to be able to ignore their barrage and punch them. Over time I slowly increased the amount of time blocking or taking a hit would lock them down and lowered the damage needed to achieve it until I stopped getting complaints about it, and that's how we ended up where we are now.


I'm taking your feedback to heart, though, and I plan to make the AI's punch damage vary a bit more than it does now so it averages a little lower. The top end is going to stay where it is now, which is the same top-end the player can reach. I'll probably increase the amount you can crank up the aggression slider, too, but I need to make sure that doesn't cause some unforeseen problems when it's set extremely high.

[damu]

It used to be harder to lock the opponent down through constant punching than it is now, but I was getting negative feedback that the opponent seemed to be able to ignore their barrage and punch them. Over time I slowly increased the amount of time blocking or taking a hit would lock them down and lowered the damage needed to achieve it until I stopped getting complaints about it, and that's how we ended up where we are now.

Sounds like there should be an option for that like I originally proposed :D
Like a "hard" or "more active AI" mode, maybe between "normal" and "endurance" for us hyper active players that find the normal AI too passive:
- the AI is harder to stun
- harder to corner (tries harder / more often to move out of a corner)
- doubled/trippled aggression
- ...?
That with a slighty reduced power via the custom difficulty could feel perfect for me, or I just have to get better with hitting the weakpoints.

I'm taking your feedback to heart, though, and I plan to make the AI's punch damage vary a bit more than it does now so it averages a little lower. The top end is going to stay where it is now, which is the same top-end the player can reach. I'll probably increase the amount you can crank up the aggression slider, too, but I need to make sure that doesn't cause some unforeseen problems when it's set extremely high.

Sounds awesome!

[Ian (Sealost)]

Hey, just letting you know that the current beta branch of the game (which you can opt into by right clicking the game in Steam, choosing "Properties" from the drop-down, clicking the "Betas" tab, and selecting the beta from the list of options) has some changes related to this. I lowered the AI's bottom end range of their punch force so that they can sometimes throw a bit weaker swings and in general hit for less on average. I didn't increase the maximum you can adjust the aggression slider, but I did have it affect more things than before in a way that makes it more effective and hopefully works towards addressing some of the specific behavior issues we talked about.

Give it a try when you have a moment, and let me know what you think. Thanks!

[damu]

Originally posted by fyiandev:

Hey, just letting you know that the current beta branch of the game (which you can opt into by right clicking the game in Steam, choosing "Properties" from the drop-down, clicking the "Betas" tab, and selecting the beta from the list of options) has some changes related to this. I lowered the AI's bottom end range of their punch force so that they can sometimes throw a bit weaker swings and in general hit for less on average. I didn't increase the maximum you can adjust the aggression slider, but I did have it affect more things than before in a way that makes it more effective and hopefully works towards addressing some of the specific behavior issues we talked about.

Give it a try when you have a moment, and let me know what you think. Thanks!

Ah cool. I test it later and maybe over multiple sessions.

I played some more with various settings by now and I'm still unsure, here are some results: One thing I noticed is that the automatical adjust seems to lower my multipliers so low that I can pretty much only land blue hits which don't do much if I got you right. It lowers the multipliers to around 1.0x. At 1.1x I'm still able to do damage so it's 10% too low in my experience. Maybe it's too much geared towards a very consistent punching power and I'm just too inconsistent? Maybe I could come up with a way to make very consistent but weaker punches so that it gives me a higher multiplier but intentionally holding back to trick the AI seems like cheating.
The current 200% aggression limit might actually be fine. I don't know why but I'm somehow no longer able to lock them so much like before, I have to take much more breaks. This game is super hard to test because it's so dependent on your fitness and physical condition :-) Looks more like a real boxing match then.
I'll try to test again if I can keep them locked. If I just stand there without guarding they are pretty active, especially with raised aggression.

With the automatic adjust I still haven't made it past Spider. His reach and power is just crazy. He also doesn't really care about all of my hits. Moneymaker on the same settings actually seems easier, maybe that's just the reach difference?

I also made a test with one of the easier AIs with their power reduced to 90%. He still did a lot of damage but at least didn't knock me out in one crazy combo flurry.

I watched a bunch of real boxing matches by now. I noticed two big differences:
1. There don't seem to be such crazy long and wild combos in reality as the AI sometimes does. BTW ingame blocking them doesn't help much a lot of the time but counter attacking can interrupt their flurry.
2. Many boxers got knocked out by punches straight to the face/chin but my ingame straight punches don't seem to be doing actual damage, they can only stun a bit. No wonder I used so many huge swings rather quickly in The Thrill of the Fight.

[damu]

Edited after comparing against the normal branch...

Ok tested the beta branch now with two fights (one warmup and one against Spider) and really like it so far. Here's my video with the two fights that I did, there are timestamps in the description:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB2CvH6OIzw
The third round against Spider was super interesting. No one was knocked out in the first two rounds and the third was a knockout festival with 5 in total. I was quite sure I was point leading in the first round (10:9) but wasn't sure about the second round which felt somewhat balanced because I was already out of energy somehow...
Then he knocked me out in the third round. I kinda panicked and saw me loose the whole match again. I never beat Spider with automatic adjust. If I wouldn't be able to KO him as well I would loose that round 8:10 (I think), so I tried and KO'ed him as well and it went back and forth. Awesome fight. I don't think my comeback would have been possible in the normal branch. Maybe some changes in "health recovery"? I as a player seemed to comeback half dead while the AI seemed to gain an energy shield in the normal branch, now it seems more fair.

So what I noticed:
- Spiders attacks were much weaker. I think he used to TKO me in the first round. This is now much better. He still seemed stronger but not totally overpowered.
- Straight punches seem to do actual damage.
- AI attacks can't be interrupted as easily anymore. I think in the normal branch I could totally stop an attack by causing damage myself, this doesn't work as well anymore and double hits happen. Feels more realistic now.
- The red shorts seemed much further forward now. The game seems to assume that I'm standing perfectly straight but I'm bent forward, real boxers seem to bent forward like me as well. I think I'll just deactivate the shorts, they have no real purpose anyway.

Overall: Seems much better, I didn't notice anything being worse. I had some performance issues in the first round but it got better and might just have been my PC.

Here's another video where I compared against Spider in the normal game branch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oo9eu8MogU
I somehow suddenly could beat him in the normal branch as well but I noticed his stronger hits. Some of the differences I thought I noticed before didn't seem correct anymore and I edited this post.

[damu]

Ping. Just edited my post above and made some corrections after a test fight against Spider on the normal branch. Also added that video to compare.

[damu]

Made another comparison with a video and noticed a few things which could be improved:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5pj6F9jLo0
- 8:53 Second round of the second fight (beta branch). I quickly got him in a cheesy loop knocking him out. Less predictable behaviour would be nice. This only happened once though.
- In the whole second fight I had the feeling that I had figured out a really good timing. I could predict when he would punch and could often dodge and guard on those predictions. Again some more unpredictability would increase immersion and make the AI feel less like an AI. Just some (more?) randomized timings.
- I was doing a lot of lunges where I bent forward a lot to extend my reach and hit his body to stun him and open his guard. I don't think this move would work in a real boxing fight :D The AI could just hit the player or guard low when he goes that weirdly low.