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To avoid my fuzzy memory on the project, I took a peek at the code, and I'll just list out some numbers here.
Quick definitions:
Force is the force calculated by your punch multiplied by the force multiplier and then capped at 3600.
Damage is calculated by multiplying Force by weak point bonus, multiplying by a pain/trauma factor, and dividing by the opponent's Toughness modifier.
The heavy bag shows Force. The boxing dummy shows Damage. The weak point bonus is the main difference between the heavy bag and boxing dummy.
Damage required for an effective hit: 2700
Damage above this value contributes to dizziness: 3200
Damage for solid yellow hit: 3490
Damage in one swing for a direct knockdown: 4280
NOTE: These numbers are after the force multiplier has been applied. The dummy does not use a force multiplier value. If you think 2700 seems extremely hard to get on the dummy, remember that your punch force will be multiplied by your force multiplier value in an actual fight, unless you're using a 1x multiplier (and you should not be doing that - despite the tidiness of it, 1x is way too low of a multiplier for pretty much anybody in terms of how the game mechanics are meant to work).
Damage below the effective hit threshold show a solid cyan color splash, which is generally what gets referred to as "light blue".
Damage between 2700 and 3490 does a linear blend between pure cyan and pure yellow.
Only the amount of damage above the effective hit threshold contributes to pain/trauma. So if you hit for 2900 damage then 200 damage gets added to the pain or trauma amounts.
Dizziness is similar in that only the amount of damage above the dizzy threshold gets added to the dizziness value.
Those values are the same for you and every opponent, however the Toughness modifier reduces your Damage, which makes it harder to hit those thresholds. The difficulty selection changes the Toughness modifier, or you can manually adjust it with the Customize menu (which also has presets that show you the values for the different difficulty levels). Duke and Moneymaker have a base 103% Toughness (which gets multiplied by the difficulty Toughness modifier to determine the final value). The Artist has 101%. Everyone else has 100% or less.
Pain/trauma increases your Damage, which makes it easier to hit those thresholds. The pain/trauma effect is exponential, not linear, and needs to build up quite a bit before it has much of an effect.
As soon as the bell rings or the opponent starts to fall down, your hits no longer damage the opponent.
Technically yes, but because it doesn't have a linear effect (and the scale adjusts based on the total round count) then it might not be super intuitive to control. The system was designed around the opponent being easier to hurt and knock down in the late rounds from the same level of effort from the player, and not to account for players swinging more lightly on average as the fight goes on.
Dizziness doesn't make your hits do more damage or change any of the thresholds. It does make the opponent hit with less power and triggers the AI back away from you and try to cover up until they recover. When they're dizzy your goal is to keep trying to dizzy them further until they get knocked down while not getting tunnel vision about it in case you don't make any progress and they recover enough to start swinging back.
Edit: There ambiguous language in the guide about this. It says dizziness causes a damage penalty. That's meant to mean a reduction to your damage output, not a boost to the damage you receive.
That's ambiguously phrased.
Does that mean that the dizzyness-threshold also starts at 2700 damage? Or just that AI and player have the same thresholds?
That is absolutely fascinating!
I've been playing the game incredibly suboptimally, then.
A 2701-damage-punch is basically worthless, even though I still got encouraging feedback for it.
And a 2900-dmg punch is twice as valuable as a 2800-dmg punch.
That explains much better, why I throw punch about 20 times as many punches as my opponent.
So I should make sure, that each punch is as hard as possible.
[actually, that doesn't sound like a very fun way to play, but is very good to have at the back of my head still]
I still usually do three to ten times as much damage at the scorecard.
So does this mean, that the score-card shows damage counts the total damage of all punches that are above 2700?
Or does it just count all damage, even if it's below-threshold?
I thought that my AI-opponents just absolutely sucked, because they barely caused me damage. Though miraculously they can still knock me down.
Hmm... I quite like it at the moment. It's a challenge at Endurance for me, but not an impossible one. Especially now, since now I have a sense of what those tidy numbers actually are and what they mean.
But I can see now, how that doesn't interact nicely with the Force-limit of 3600. Reaching the 4240 required for a one-hit knockdown would require a 18% weak-point bonus. Sounds infeasible in practice.
Also my absolute hardest/fastest punches tend to result in the floating-glove issue, anyway. The aluminium-foil issue made it better, but I might have to fiddle with it a bit more, for that to go away.
Once your punch reaches the damage threshold, ALL of your damage from that punch contributes to score and to trauma/pain.
This is different than dizziness, where only the amount beyond the dizzying hit threshold applies.
AI and player have the same thresholds. Put another way, I haven't gone through and defined specific thresholds for each individual opponent. Toughness affects the damage calculation, though, so will make it harder or easier to reach these thresholds (and Toughness does vary by opponent and by difficulty level).
As mentioned above, I was just wrong about this part.
I believe the game used to only count damage beyond the minimum damage threshold, but that it was changed to work how it does now relatively late in development to accommodate throwing a higher number of lighter punches. The game was really designed around the idea of throwing a relatively small number (30 to 50 per round) of higher value swings. This is what the AI tries to do and is what makes them seem so effective damage-wise even on Normal where their offensive stats are on par with the player. It's also why it's so easy to vastly out-damage them.
The game does have a big focus on aiming for the weak points instead of just swinging harder. You shouldn't ever be swinging harder than what is safe or comfortable for you, and swinging harder also leads to poorer tracking with pretty much every headset. This is why 1x isn't appropriate for most players. Your multiplier should be high enough that it's possible to hit max force within your comfort range (and while keeping good tracking), and then you're meant to be throwing vaguely in the area of the weak points for take-down shots.
Well, I have some thoughts on that.
I swing between 70 to 130 swings per round. Closer to the higher end.
And I try to keep my "damaging punch"-ration above 70%. I'm really happy, if I reach 90%. A bit above 70% is what I seem to get with a 1x-multiplier, which I'm not fully used to yet.
But from what I can tell, fighting like that makes perfect sense to me.
It’s about the appropriate amount, if I only do two to three normal fights per session. I fight shirtless, end up sweating a lot and take a shower afterwards. Or I just take one fight and go for a run afterwards.
30 to 50 punches don’t seem right at all.
Let me elaborate:
https://shortboxing.com/average-punches-in-a-boxing-match/
I weigh 73 kg at the moment with 15% bodyfat.
Roughly a “middleweight”.
I’m not a heavy-weight. Why would I fight like one, if I have to deal with just a fraction of the inertia?
But middling between the extremes, we get (100+30)/2 = 65 punches per round is still far lower than what I tend to do.
But that’s because I don’t have the body of a prizefighter yet.
An actual prize fighter is in the best natural shape possible for their given body.
[probably even beyond, because of steroids]
I am strong, easily in the top-90% for my weight group in terms of strength, because of my weightlifting experience.
That also gives me decent cardio, since I trained to up my work volume.
But I’m 187cm tall, my wrist-size is 16.5 cm and my ankle size is 20.7 cm.
So according to Dr. Butt, my full genetic potential is about 84.6 at 12% bodyfat.
https://www.strongerbyscience.com/your-drug-free-muscle-and-strength-potential-part-1/
A fighter who actually weigh as much as me, would probably carry a lot more musculature and not be as tall.
Or alternatively the prizefighter-version of me (having my genetics, but a different life) would have already had years more training and would outweigh me by at least 10kg.
From what little I understand of (real-life) punch force, he'd easily punch twice as hard. But each extra kg also needs to be accelerated and decelerated.
A fight would not end in three to four rounds, either.
A real fight also has blocking also takes energy (not to mention, actually taking hits, saps your energy).
And there’d be more and faster footwork.
The AI doesn’t demand too much, also I won’t actually get hurt if I take a hit and my playspace is too small for very fancy maneuvering.
[I've got 3 metres by 4 metres, great for almost every game... except definitely not enough for this one]
If I actually want to force myself to do fewer punches, well… I’d have to reduce the multiplier below even 1.
Since force is mostly determined by controller speed and is also capped, that won’t work. Assuming we can trust the measurements, I’m already punching considerably faster than boxers usually do.
12 m/s is not hard for me to do.
Around 14 m/s is my fastest punch.
If I actually tried to hit a heavywheight with that, I’d probably hurt my hand more than his face :)
This also leads to a problem with difficulty for me.
The opponents feel like they're not even trying, because I'm far, far more aggressive than them. Maxing out their aggressiveness stats helps.
Though they're still not nearly as active as I am, then.
And I also run into play space trouble with all the dodging and repositioning I'm forced into.
So this takes out the challenge of the fight itself.
In an ideal fighting game, I would want to lose 50% of the time, whilst trying my hardest.
But if I set the difficulty higher, they're so tough, that most of my punches can barely damage them.
That's just frustrating, so I don't try the highest difficulty settings.
Part of that is probably because, I play with a low multiplier.
But if I play with a higher multiplier, where even my weaker punches do more damage. Since I outpunch them 8 to 1, that feels cheap.
So at the moment, I go into a fight, trying to only hit damaging punches and winning as fast as possible.
That's still fun at the moment.
The game is great cardio.
But I haven't really figured out how to make it an actual fight, yet.
Even my roommate noticed immediately, that the opponent doesn't "seem to want to fight back".
Is there a problem, other than the "floating glove"-issue?
I think that already got better with the aluminium strip.
I'm still experimenting with that, maybe can fix that entirely.
Not looking for a perfect answer here. Mostly just thinking out loud.
Actually understanding the mechanics of the game helps me figure out good settings or at least, the best compromise that I can make, given the constraints of the software and hardware.
Please fully document TotF 2 on release, maybe?
Please don't think I'm trying to tell you that you need a post-game punches thrown stat between 30 to 50 to be playing the game correctly, or anything like that. If you're throwing 300 high value punches, I'm not telling you that you should be throwing less. The damage system numbers were loosely set around players throwing (and really I should say landing, not throwing) 30 to 50 high value punches, but that's expected to be a subset of your total punches thrown and not every single one you throw or even most of the ones you throw. And I'm giving a range and also saying "loosely" because there is no specific value for what a high value punch is meant to be. If you're throwing more high value punches than that, you're definitely not doing anything wrong - the game is just going to be easier because you're doing better than what was expected from the average player. This also has nothing to do with CompuBox stats from real-world pro boxing matches.
This isn't even the only way to play the game or the only way it can possibly function - just what the original intent was that set the structure for how the damage system works.
You're not going to get a real fight from TotF - not on the level that an actual real-world fight would be. The AI just isn't smart or capable enough for that and the mechanics are too conservative about preventing the opponent from moving around your space. There are a handful of pro boxers that play TotF regularly, but my understanding is that they use it as interactive shadowboxing or like any other bag or piece of equipment they'd drill on, and not as a replacement for real sparring or fighting.
----
Your multiplier is meant to work such that when you're throwing at a comfortable level of effort (and hopefully with good form, but the game doesn't teach you that), your punch range gets adjusted by the multiplier such that your punch with the highest force calculation hits for the highest amount of force the game is designed around. You can look at the heavy bag at pick a multiplier that would adjust your top-end force to 3600. You can also turn on the Automatic Force Adjustment, jump into a match against the sparring partner on Endurance, try to throw a good variety of punches to give the game a good sampling, and let the match go to the scorecards. Don't end the fight early - in fact try to avoid knockdowns all together because they waste time you could be punching. Throw comfortably and with good form if you can. When you're done, turn off Automatic Force Adjustment, and the manual sliders will be set to whatever the game adjusted you to.
Your top-end good form punch should now be hitting for max force. If you throw lighter than that, it should land lighter. If you throw a fast punch with bad form, it will hit harder than it should, but not more than your hardest good form punch would be. These lighter but faster punches are going to be relatively too strong no matter what your multiplier is, and if your multiplier is too low then you'll probably be mostly throwing these types of punches.
The fidelity of tracking seems to decline with very fast acceleration on most headsets. Most headsets have a noticeable outward drift on fast punches. Ultra-fast stops and starts also seem to cause random freak-outs and floating glove issues even on headsets that don't have replaceable batteries.
This is really based on acceleration not speed, but in my experience I haven't noticed many issues with punches reaching 10m/s or slower. As you go beyond 10m/s, you start to notice more and more outward drift and other controller issues, and beyond 15m/s reliability really drops off. Because it's based on acceleration, if you really snap out or quickly stop even a 8m/s punch you might get problems.
To keep training interesting or to train specific things, I need to control the variables and know what is (and is not) possible to train.
Knowing about the model, the intentions and limitations help me figure out creative ways to use it as a training tool.
All this input helps me train more frequently and get more out of it.
Thank you for all your patience and effort.
I'm good now.