Heavy Bag and Dummy feedback

[CrazyCajunJ]

The only thing so far I really see that might need some tweaking are the bags. Dummy, heavy bag and the speed bag. The dummy and heavy bag feels like bricks and does not move any no matter how hard you punch it. I know it is not supposed to fly all over the world but a light punch and a heavy punch should get a little different reaction. Same with the Dummy. Those are not major issues at all and won't make or break the game. Other than that I think so far the game is awesome and pretty polished. I mean I played every boxing VR game and this one is super promising.

I love how you can customize how hard or easy you want the sparring partner and how many rounds to fight. So much is right about this game I can tell a lot of effort was put into it. I look forward to fighting for 12 rounds against my sparring partner to get some awesome exercise in. The only other small issue I had was if I throw a really fast and hard knockout blow most times it does not register it. Other than that this game is going to be the best boxing game ever. I can't wait to see what comes next. I just hope none of the great features are taken out. I wish I could change my name and my corner color but whatever.

I hope this game continues to improve and add more boxers, even if it is DLC. I would buy it hands down. Keep up the great work guys. Looking forward to playing this for many hours and getting in great shape doing it... Thank You!!!

[Ian (Sealost)]

Hey, I appreciate the feedback!

I'll look into increasing the movement of the dummy and heavy bag. This should be no problem for the dummy, but with the heavy bag my worry is that users with small spaces will "chase" after the bag and swing outside of their space. It also may be a little frustrating if it moves so much that you have to wait for it to reset before you throw your next swing (since you can't stop it's movement with your hands, which is another issue ).

There's a couple things to note about hard swings. First off, all the current VR controllers just don't seem designed to handle the acceleration required for full force punches. The controllers seem to give unreliable position readings (and thus velocity calculations) at about 10m/s or so, with punches faster than that being more and more inaccurate. This inaccuracy can show up as hits reading out faster than normal or slower than normal. I can cap off the top-end of the punch speeds, but there's not much I can do about them reading out more slowly than they should. The only real solution is to punch a little slower, but I know that's not desirable.

The other thing worth noting is that, by default, the game tries to determine how hard you can hit, and adjusts all of your punches so that your hardest swings hit for a specific top-end amount of force that I've decided on for balance reasons. This makes it so you don't have to have any specific level of strength to play the game (and also can't be too strong for the game, either) and can play with whatever level of intensity you're comfortable with, but your light hits are still light, your hard hits hard, and everything in between properly in between. The also means that if you swing for awhile with a certain intensity and let the game adjust to you, and then you suddenly start swinging harder, the game will just readjust to your newfound strength and you actually won't be hitting any harder. The game will drop your multiplier (lowering your strength) instantly, but will only increase your multiplier (increasing your strength) at the end of each round based on how hard you were swinging during that round. This makes it so you can't easily cheat by sandbagging. If you don't like this, you can turn it off at the very bottom of the settings menu, and can use the slider that appears to manually set the multiplier to whatever feels good to you.

The top-end damage level that I balance the game around is designed so that you won't get a knockdown from a single blind blow to the broad side of the opponent's head. You instead have to hit the opponent's weak points (marked on the dummy) to stand a decent chance of getting a one hit knockdown.


As far as future improvements - it's just me working on the game, so it takes me awhile to make large changes or get big chunks of content added. I knew I wouldn't be able to add much content or have much polish on my own, so I've tried to keep the price low to compensate. Instead of DLC, I'm looking into getting some help and working on a sequel with people that are better coders and game makers than I am. I'm still in the very, very early stages of trying to get something going there, so I don't have anything concrete to share at the moment. In the meantime, I'll still be working on improving TotF1 like I have been for the past 2.5 years, though.


Are you on the beta branch?

[CrazyCajunJ]

No I am not on the beta branch. I been looking for a game like this for a long time for fitness reasons and just wanted to join the discussion because I think the game is very cool.. You did great job!!

[The Amazing Markbert]

Originally posted by Zumotokari:

The only other small issue I had was if I throw a really fast and hard knockout blow most times it does not register it.

Do you mean the punch goes through the opponent like a ghost? Or, do you mean it doesn't automatically stagger or otherwise do as much damage as you think it should?

[Lazarus {FATE}]

Originally posted by Zumotokari:

No I am not on the beta branch. I been looking for a game like this for a long time for fitness reasons and just wanted to join the discussion because I think the game is very cool.. You did great job!!

Welcome to the Torture :)

Try out the Beta branch you may like the tweaks that were made, if not you can always revert.

As Ian stated above, high speed punches can wreak havoc with the tracking.

I used to have that problem before but you can eventually dial in your speed to a decent level.
I added 1 pound wrist weights (that actually aren't that great or safe to use) and moved to weighted gloves in the beginning and the weight slowed my punches down slightly. Now I no longer feel the weight and my punch speed is basically muscle memory .

You really have to be careful if you go the weighted route and are not warmed up or don't have proper form cause it's really easy to hurt yourself, especially with wrist weights, which is why weighted gloves are the best. One bad hook or over extended cross can be the end of your VR boxing for quite some time.

[Ian (Sealost)]

Originally posted by Heerz Johnny:

I used to have that problem before but you can eventually dial in your speed to a decent level.
I added 1 pound wrist weights (that actually aren't that great or safe to use) and moved to weighted gloves in the beginning and the weight slowed my punches down slightly. Now I no longer feel the weight and my punch speed is basically muscle memory .

You really have to be careful if you go the weighted route and are not warmed up or don't have proper form cause it's really easy to hurt yourself, especially with wrist weights, which is why weighted gloves are the best. One bad hook or over extended cross can be the end of your VR boxing for quite some time.

There's a user on the forums (Zenobo) who uses resistance bands on a harness instead of wrist weights, which I think is a better alternative to the weights. The bands wouldn't add constant weight for your joints to support, and would help slow your punches instead of adding extra stress to your joints as you try to slow your punches down.

[Lazarus {FATE}]

Originally posted by fyiandev:

Originally posted by Heerz Johnny:

I used to have that problem before but you can eventually dial in your speed to a decent level.
I added 1 pound wrist weights (that actually aren't that great or safe to use) and moved to weighted gloves in the beginning and the weight slowed my punches down slightly. Now I no longer feel the weight and my punch speed is basically muscle memory .

You really have to be careful if you go the weighted route and are not warmed up or don't have proper form cause it's really easy to hurt yourself, especially with wrist weights, which is why weighted gloves are the best. One bad hook or over extended cross can be the end of your VR boxing for quite some time.

There's a user on the forums (Zenobo) who uses resistance bands on a harness instead of wrist weights, which I think is a better alternative to the weights. The bands wouldn't add constant weight for your joints to support, and would help slow your punches instead of adding extra stress to your joints as you try to slow your punches down.

16 oz weighted gloves are no different than real boxing gloves.
I tried tubing on a home made harness a ways back. It was based of my weighted vest and recurve bow leaves and found it to be overly uncomfortable and restrictive in movement.
Also the extra rigging used to get wrapped around my vr cabling as I would circle which wasn't a problem when I was wireless.

Not to mention counting on the bands to slow you down will make you careless over time. When I quit using my experimental rig and playd without it I over extended my elbow on a straight in my first match and quit playing for a month just because I expected the band to stop (slow) my forward movement, with weights that won't happen, but as you said other problems may arise.

But whatever works individually is fine.

If weighted gloves were that dangerous more boxers would be out of their careers fairly quickly especially the amature ones.

Proper form will keep injury at a minimum, so will additional weight training and not over exerting but that goes for any physical activity.

Adding actual gloves or weight while punching should only be done once your are comfortable punching properly in vr. I use real bag training as well with 16 oz boxing gloves to get my range and form in check. By form I mean as good as I can manage without a trainer.

Also you don't actively try and slow your punches down while using weight, the weight will slow you down in itself until you get used to the weight but by that time your speed should be more consistent.

Although you are right in warning that injury is possible as I did, heck, you can hurt yourself simply by over extending without weight in vr.

Also anything over 16 oz just doesn't feel right, I tried 2.5 lbs and even though they don't feel heavy I wouldn't use them due to the danger at my physical condition, maybe in a few months.

[Ian (Sealost)]

A lot of good points here!

Originally posted by Heerz Johnny:

If weighted gloves were that dangerous more boxers would be out of their careers fairly quickly especially the amature ones. Proper form will keep injury at a minimum, so will additional weight training and not over exerting but that goes for any physical activity.

I imagine most people sincerely doing real-world boxing are also doing some strength training and focusing on proper form. That's likely not the case for a lot of people playing TotF, even if they're playing for fitness reasons.

The real-world boxers are also stopping their punches by landing a certain % against a solid real-world target instead of being guaranteed to miss 100% of their swings.

Originally posted by Heerz Johnny:

Not to mention counting on the bands to slow you down will make you careless over time. When I quit using my experimental rig and playd without it I over extended my elbow on a straight in my first match and quit playing for a month just because I expected the band to stop (slow) my forward movement, with weights that won't happen, but as you said other problems may arise.

This is a very good point and definitely something to watch out for.

Originally posted by Heerz Johnny:

But whatever works individually is fine.

Agreed. No matter what you end up with (not you specifically, but to any given person reading this), just pay attention to what you're doing and make sure it's working well for you individually and that you're not hurting yourself.

Originally posted by Heerz Johnny:

Adding actual gloves or weight while punching should only be done once your are comfortable punching properly in vr. I use real bag training as well with 16 oz boxing gloves to get my range and form in check. By form I mean as good as I can manage without a trainer.

I absolutely agree here!

Originally posted by Heerz Johnny:

Also you don't actively try and slow your punches down while using weight, the weight will slow you down in itself until you get used to the weight but by that time your speed should be more consistent.

This is still something to watch out for, though. Weights will make you punch slower, but they won't help you slow your punches to a stop. It's still going to take more force than someone might be used to to stop that slower punch.

[Lazarus {FATE}]

Agree with you Ian but when I was talking about real world boxers it was in the context of shadow boxing, I should have made that clear, my bad. But you are right that even then they actually see what they are doing compared to us in VR.

Also I'd hope that people using this for fitness would be doing some weight training as well as they are both complimentary but I'd guess not everyone would be that invested.

[CrazyCajunJ]

Originally posted by The Amazing Markbert:

Originally posted by Zumotokari:

The only other small issue I had was if I throw a really fast and hard knockout blow most times it does not register it.

Do you mean the punch goes through the opponent like a ghost? Or, do you mean it doesn't automatically stagger or otherwise do as much damage as you think it should?

Yes, I mean the punch goes through them like ghost. Happens at least two or three times a fight for me. I can see my glove go right through his face. The glove is blinking sometimes though so that prob is a slight tracking issue.

[CrazyCajunJ]

Like I said though, this is fairly small issue and it really does not bother except for when his face is wide open and I am about to smash him and it goes through his face hahaha... I get a bit involved in boxing LoL... I am 42 now and my real boxing days are over but I still love the action even if is only VR.

[Lazarus {FATE}]

Originally posted by Zumotokari:

Like I said though, this is fairly small issue and it really does not bother except for when his face is wide open and I am about to smash him and it goes through his face hahaha... I get a bit involved in boxing LoL... I am 42 now and my real boxing days are over but I still love the action even if is only VR.

I think some of us understand fully. I'm 51 and using this as a fitness motivation. It may have become a bit of an obsession but well worth it to me, not actually getting hit is a bonus.

Ian is an exceptionally communicative game Dev. I wish there were more like him. From experience,I know he'll want to fix your problem or at least help try and find the cause, be it the game or the hardware limitations.


What headset are you using?

[The Amazing Markbert]

Originally posted by Zumotokari:

Originally posted by The Amazing Markbert:

Do you mean the punch goes through the opponent like a ghost? Or, do you mean it doesn't automatically stagger or otherwise do as much damage as you think it should?

Yes, I mean the punch goes through them like ghost. Happens at least two or three times a fight for me. I can see my glove go right through his face. The glove is blinking sometimes though so that prob is a slight tracking issue.

That sounds annoying. I have a similar issue caused by the Vive's controllers tendency to drift when moved at high speeds. I'll sometimes forget to compensate for the drift by aiming short of the target and have my hook fly harmlessly behind the opponent's head. -_-

[Ian (Sealost)]

Originally posted by Zumotokari:

Like I said though, this is fairly small issue and it really does not bother except for when his face is wide open and I am about to smash him and it goes through his face hahaha... I get a bit involved in boxing LoL... I am 42 now and my real boxing days are over but I still love the action even if is only VR.

I'd like to hear more about this issue to see if there's something I need to fix. Like Markbert mentioned, there is an issue with the Vive's tracking that causes your controller positions to swing out much farther than your actual arm with fast hooks. This makes it easy to miss behind the opponent's head.

Another thing to mention is that on the beta, if you make contact with the side of the opponent's head and your real-world hand passes through to the other side, your in-game glove will detect that it may be about to get stuck and will pass through the opponent like a ghost to reunite with your hand. If the opponent has their guard up, you may not have noticed that you were blocked, but did visually notice that your hand passed through their head. If they didn't have their guard up, it's possible the hit was a less powerful hit than anticipated, but you still noticed the glove ghost through their head. If you didn't get any sort of sound, hit effect, or vibration at all, then it's likely the punch cleanly missed, possibly due to the Vive drifting issue mentioned above.