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You mean cheap movement with thumb sticks? Naw, I hate Creed for that crap. Much better solution already in TOTF. IMHO large roomscale movement using locomotion in this game would be terrible and I'd quit in a heartbeat.
Locomotion and or teleporting ruins games immersion for me and having to move and actually box at the same time would kill the experience.
"Locomotion ruins immersion" actually makes me cringe, you must be the reason there's so many gimmick VR games. Pavlov has locomotion and I've yet to play a game more immersive. I can see how people with large scale rooms would not want locomotion to change. I am the majority, I have a playspace I can't move around in much. If realism comes down to fighting inside a tiny cage or being able to move a bit then I choose move. If you really want to get into realism you could put in a unique movement system.
All im saying is the game is extremely limited to me and in it's current state I would not recommend it to others even though it's an awesome game. Putting in a movement system would change nothing for current players and help those confined to a small space. It's also really easy to code, I could help if you need...
It's unlikely that a standing mode will be added to TotF1 at this point, and so I try to make it clear that it is a room scale only game with a minimum space requirement.
TotF was designed around 2m by 1.5m of space as the absolute minimum, and I did initially develop the game while keeping my chaperone bounds restricted to that size of play area. While the game is definitely more fun the more space you have, the AI is designed to behave as if you have a limited amount of space to move within (and are tethered by a cord, etc). The important part here is the 2m of front-to-back space to make sure you and the opponent can stand outside of each others' ranges. It sounds like you have the room for this, but just don't like the game as it has been designed, which is a completely fair opinion to have.
It'd be simple enough to allow you to use the joystick to move around, but the rest of the game isn't designed around that, and the safety considerations of doing so are important for me to consider as well.
The complication isn't in adding the joystick input moving the player around, but would be finding and dealing with all of the various side-effects from allowing the player to do so. For an example off the top of my head (and as just a minor example and not the only example), I could pretty easily just have the game treat a "standing mode" player as a room scale player with a large play space and have the joystick input move them around within the space as if the player was moving, but then things start to get weird when it comes to how the game expects the play area to be at an offset angle relative to the ring and how the game expects the player to be placed when they're moved to the corner. There are solutions for all of these things, and many of them are simple, but it's not as painless as just adding a few lines of code. The game's foundations were built with purely room scale play in mind three years ago with the Vive controllers held sideways for comfort and before the Oculus Rift even had tracked controllers. There's just a ton of small design decisions all over the place built on top of how the play area system works that would need to be identified and revisited in order to add artificial locomotion.
There's also the safety issue of a player being able to walk up to the edge of their play area, use joystick movement to travel towards the opponent, and then take a swing at the opponent who is now close to them but is outside of their play space. That's the primary cause of the injury and broken equipment posts you see on Reddit from games like Gorn, Drunkn Bar Fight, and Creed. I have plans for how I would theoretically address this, but it's not the sort of thing I'd be able to quickly and easily drop into TotF.
It's sort of like multiplayer. Yeah, in concept it's really not that hard to implement multiplayer syncing between two players, but the game has already been designed without it, so it's difficult to go back and add properly. Multiplayer would definitely be a bigger challenge than adding artificial locomotion, but it's the same line of reasoning.
Again, I can't express enough that I agree with you, but it's just not how the game is. I hope I get the chance to make a sequel that caters more towards what the VR market matured into, builds on what I've learned making the first game, and that has more resources in terms of funding and manpower available to really nail the features and polish. If it happens (and I'm working on making it happen), I plan on that game having artificial locomotion.
As far as "safety" I feel like that's more complicated and is mostly on the user to figure out. Even if I had a 5mx5m playspace I would not want to play a game that makes me move away from my center. Why? Because once I am away from my center any swing is a potential whack against a wall. If I am always in my center, I am always safe to swing in all directions. This is how I play all VR games now and It's how all other vets I know play. My playspace is defined by a box in the center of it, nothing more.
I feel like locomotion still isn't worked out from a hardware perspective and we will probably see a better idea at some point. If you check out h3vr the armswinger mode actually feels good. It still presents problems depending on what you want the pace of the game to be like and the average intelligence of the user...lol
I'm a vr vet from the first rift dev kit days. Although I raced and flew mostly.
Button locomotion sucked in the beginning and sucks now, breaking vr immersion in games like this. Until movement becomes a 1 to 1 unit in your play area VR games requiring movement (fps type) are best played with kb&m on a flat screen IMHO. Vr is a novelty for fps , rpg type games unless using an omni or other real movement schemes which wouldn't work well with boxing. Some people dislike immersion breaking in vr some don't.
Please don't use that useless excuse of a boxing game (Creed) as the way to do it because it isn't.
If Ian allows locomotion in a future release I would hope he would have a way for those of us who have the room to move be able to do so without locomotion enabled
I'm sure arm swinging for movement could work in a game I just don't see a boxing game like TOTF being anywhere close to being a sim with that. It's fine for arcade games like Creed but I doubt any serious TOTF player would actually like it. It would probably be better to add a boundary that you would step out of to move in said direction but would recenter you once you moved back in. It would still break immersion but be better than using thumb sticks while boxing.
Some of us use trackers and or unorthodox ways of holding our controllers and thumbstick are useless or non existant.
Also you don't have to be insulting about the intelligence of an average user, but I guess you are a superior user? 😜 Not that it takes much smarts to move your thumb.
I have a clear 10 by 10 area just waiting for the quest release so I can move even more. I'd hate to have all that free movement and then be handicapped by artificial locomotion.
Everyone has their own preference and I hope any sequel will take that into consideration. Everyone should be able to enjoy this great game or it's sequel.
So my plans for a "standing" mode for the sequel would involve encouraging the player to stand centered in their space like you're mentioning here. The "encouragement" is what I mean by designing it to work safely. We'll see how that turns out if I get to make a sequel.
But as far as the "room scale" mode goes in TotF1, I already have safety systems in place to make sure you don't whack against a wall. That's why the opponent stays within the play area within a certain buffer zone. Basically I expect the user to communicate to the game what their entire free and clear area to play in is (through the boundaries they set up), and then I do my best to make sure the game doesn't ever require you to move or swing outside of that area.
With a "standing" mode, the expectation would change from "I can move and punch anywhere within this space" to "I can stand here and reach my arms out safely", and I would then be designing my safety systems around the latter case.
Some players prefer artificial movement and think not having it is immersion breaking. Some are the opposite and think artificial movement is immersion breaking (and just put up with it for games that you couldn't possibly do without it). It's really just personal preference, and when you're in one group it's hard to relate to the other.
If I make a sequel, I fully plan on having a "room scale" mode that works just like TotF1 does and a "standing" mode that works how @suimorB is requesting. There's plenty of opportunity to have both without either infringing on the experience of the other. The only thing I have planned that I think could be seen as a downside is that I will probably actually enforce a minimum play area size in order to play with "room scale" mode, because that gives me a bit more design freedom.
This is definitely a case of "I wasn't able to add it for TotF1" and not a case of "I don't think people should have it at all."
I agree locomotion is personal preference but once you have tried vr movement using an omni, or any of the other possibilities out there you instantly realise how locomotion is only a temporary placeholder for games that require linear movement.
Until an affordable way to have linear movement in vr has been designed locomotion will still be needed. I just don't want to see you alienate a current playerbase.
.........
Oh! The offer of some funding for totf2 is still available but I want my TOTF Quest version first!!😜
This push back on locomotion feels like someone complaining about the ps1 controller getting dual shocks. It's just natural progression. It's hard to have an actual discussion with someone that says "locomotion sucked back then and sucks now" when I've been using it for over a year having an amazing time in VR titles. Anyone in the community knows stand still VR titles were 2016 era, the future is locomotion for sure. Playspace size does not matter when movement throws you off center. You will always be dissociated wondering where the boundaries are unless you keep centered. (This is the realization of most vets)
Whatever the case it doesn't hurt for a dev to accommodate as much as they can while people are still going through their learning curves. I'd suggest checking out h3vr to see all locomotion methods done right.
With something as unique as a boxing game I'd prob do a unique locomotion system like mentioned above but who knows, people will always complain lol. If you're going for a complete redesign look up "active animations". Physics can affect the animations, I know it's built into UE4 not sure about unity. You can use an IK rig system for a full body or at least a full upper torso and incorporate actual body momentum. A punch to the side from an opponent could move your body and you could decrease the damage of your own active punch without physically moving the hands during the process (would be game breaking if your hands physically moved)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pG9SZQ0o7w
How can you consider VR Vet's being part of one community? That's kind of like saying COD players are vets when Battlefield players might have been around longer or are better. Kind of skews the results. I know a ton of people who dislike locomotion and not due to being queasy.
Being a necessity or not.. imho it still sucks but then again I've had the luxury to try an omni, and a few other movement schemes mostly based off the same tech. One of those contraptions is the only way I'd play say: Fallout 4 ,Skyrim or a generic FPS,. Being hooked into a rig would not work for TOTF due to movement restrictions. I've played many of the games that require locomotion and or teleporting, some are fun but the movement is the problematic part that always removed the immersive effect. As I've said before visuals aren't my only criteria for Immersion in VR.
I was also stating my opinion and yes you can have a discussion with someone of a differing opinion. I'm not a pretentious Ahole or closed minded that thinks my way is the only way and I won't insult the intelligence of those who disagree. It isn't really too hard to push a thumbstick to move.
Once VR's natural progression will have some type of actual movement without using thumb sticks or teleportation I will hop on the bandwagon but until then I'll play games that will allow me to move with realism in the largest space possible that I have which will be 10 by 10 when the quest gets a totf release.
If Ian (I hope he does) get's TOTF2 off the ground I just don't want locomotion to ruin the experience for me and like minded backers. For those who have no room to move added locomotion will be fine as long as it's not a requirement (like Creed)
Love your opinion! I must be the reason there are gimmicky VR games... LOL so much for a discussion. I could say the same.. peoples tolerance of locomotion is the reason VR hardware hasn't advanced to include proper movement. SEE how things can get out of hand? I won't be as pretentious or insulting to you to actually use an arguement like that.
I'm sorry you don't have enough room to move to be able to appreciate actual movement in TOTF.
Also I've seen no stats that say the majority of VR users have no room to move. It must be nice to think you are in the majority, feeling inclusive now?? Let's not argue over who is right here. It's an opinion and personal preference. I have the room for full roomscale VR you may not, it puts neither of us in a confirmed majority.
Suffice it to say locomotion is a necessity but any game that requires locomotion as the ONLY movement scheme, unless there is a lot of linear movement, needs a revision. If both schemes work well in TOTF or any other game then fine. I just don't want to be obliged to restrict my full play area due to other's not being able to move, nor do I want those who need locomotion to be alienated.
There's an observation I've made while working on TotF that I don't think is commonly noted, which is that despite how often we say "room scale" there really are only a very small handful of "room scale" games. Most games that people think of as "room scale" are actually "standing" games that can also handle the user walking around manually within their space in the event that happens. So for those games, I'm including almost every game you can think of that has artificial movement, even if you can physically walk around some, too: Pavlov, Skyrim, Fo4VR, Creed, Gorn, Drunkn Bar Fight, Arizona Sunshine, H3VR, Robo Recall, and so many others. Once you get used to the controls, the most optimal way to play these games is generally to stand in the center of your space and move around with the controller, no matter how much space you actually have - exactly like @suimorB is saying. Even though you have the option to physically move around and it might be useful sometimes, these games don't care about your actual play area and aren't designed to keep your interaction contained within it.
"True" room scale games actually look at your boundaries and use them as part of the game, which isn't the case with the games mentioned above. This includes games like Job Simulator (picks largest pre-configured layout that fits within your play area), Hover Junkers (same as Job Sim), Unseen Diplomacy (doesn't take your boundaries into account, but expects them to be a specific size you always stay within), Tea For God (similar to Unseen Diplomacy, but it adjusts to your exact play area size), and only a small few others. In all of these games, you're expected to physically move around within your play area as part of the game. You could certainly design an artificial movement system that would work for each, but generally they've been optimized around the understanding that the player will be physically moving (and Unseen Diplomacy and Tea for God would lose their primary gimmick if they had artificial movement). Since all of these are optimized around room scale, the game never does anything that would require you to reach outside of your play area (as long as you meet the minimum stated play area size for the game).
The Thrill of the Fight is a "true" room scale game like the second list in that it adjusts the game to fit your boundaries and expects you to physically move within your space. The game is designed so that all the interaction stays within your play area, so you don't need to worry about swinging outside of your boundaries. Trying to stay centered in TotF with little physical movement like you would with the first list of games is the wrong mindset. It's sort of a different "mode" of play than most games VR are, which might feel a bit foreign, but TotF is designed to be played that way.
(You'll also notice most of these "true" room scale games are games that were originally SteamVR only back around the time the Vive launched, but before Oculus had tracked controllers or a room scale boundary system. Back then, Valve released stats showing ~82% of SteamVR users were using at least the minimum room scale size of 2m by 1.5m. 8 months later that had dropped to ~75%. I don't think Valve has released play size numbers since then, but Oculus keeps their up-to-date stats here[developer.oculus.com], which shows ~35% with TotF's minimum play area size and ~75% with Guardian boundaries set up at all.)