15.8 Feedback - New punch force calculations - Your feedback appreciated!

[Ian (Sealost)]

Hello!

Beta Update 15.8 brings a new system for trying to determine the effective mass behind punches when calculating punch force, and I'd love to hear your experiences under the new system.

For now, let's not worry about the details of how the system works or what the game is looking for. What I'd like anyone who wants to provide feedback to do is go to the punching bag and just punch naturally. Focus on your real-life form and what should be getting higher or lower numbers, but don't try to assume what the game is looking at to get those numbers. I want the system to work well for anyone picking it up and punching with good form, and not just those who know how the system works.

For one possible example - if you throw a weak arm punch, are you getting a significantly lower force reading than if you use your full body to throw the same punch? Your experience with any sort of comparisons between two punch situations and how well the force read-out on the punching bag is reflecting the differences you expect will be very helpful.

Please provide details on the types of comparisons you're making, what you're doing to change up your punch for the comparison, what kind of numbers you're seeing, and roughly what you'd be expecting for those numbers instead.

Thanks!

[bshuf]

Disclaimer: I have no idea of real life boxing and I'd say I'm a 'weak' person in general

So for me weak punches are definitely getting registered correctly, leading to readings around 300 - 500N, however, if I sligthly increase the pace from those weak jabs, they easily jump into the low 1000s range. Doing jabs more quickly feels like more important than the actual energy I put behind them and I don't like it that way. Just jabs I'd throw to keep the enemy away (i.e. almost no force exerted) can sometimes cause readings > 1000N.

Crosses, unfortunately, only register in the low 1000s and max about 1500 N and feel not much stronger when looking at the readings than my regular jabs, even though it cost me a lot more energy and preparation to throw a good cross. I don't see much difference between cross + jab right now (maybe my technique sucks, though)

Lazy hooks easily reach > 2000N, properly thrown hooks > 3000 as I'd expect it.
Uppercuts get into the mid 2500N and feel fine as well. Both hooks and uppercuts generate consistent values.

[lag.whisperer]

Anyway I can change the desktop view to the old VR view, I can record a video but the current desktop view doesn't show the numbers. Jabs are my weakest (1000N in avg), my left arm is weaker (about 200N less than my right hand for each type of punch). Hooks and upper are strongest (3000N avg about the same avg for uppers or hooks).

[DarkOmen]

System: Oculus Rift
Experience: I'm an absolute beginner
Jabs (Left Hand): 500-650
Punches (Right Hand) 1200
Left Hook: 1300-2300
Right Hook: 1600-1900
Uppercuts: 1400-1700 (although there a lots of secondary hits registering at low 200-300s)

The problem I have with punching is the wide variety of force. It feels like it is not detecting the punches correctly at all times. Maybe I'm just not good enough :p. It would be a great debug tool if the punching bag would show where the hit was registered, like a heatmap.

[Ian (Sealost)]

Thanks for the feedback so far! Very valuable. I'm going to tackle all three responses in one post.

Originally posted by plano:

Disclaimer: I have no idea of real life boxing and I'd say I'm a 'weak' person in general

So for me weak punches are definitely getting registered correctly, leading to readings around 300 - 500N, however, if I sligthly increase the pace from those weak jabs, they easily jump into the low 1000s range. Doing jabs more quickly feels like more important than the actual energy I put behind them and I don't like it that way. Just jabs I'd throw to keep the enemy away (i.e. almost no force exerted) can sometimes cause readings > 1000N.

Crosses, unfortunately, only register in the low 1000s and max about 1500 N and feel not much stronger when looking at the readings than my regular jabs, even though it cost me a lot more energy and preparation to throw a good cross. I don't see much difference between cross + jab right now (maybe my technique sucks, though)

Lazy hooks easily reach > 2000N, properly thrown hooks > 3000 as I'd expect it.
Uppercuts get into the mid 2500N and feel fine as well. Both hooks and uppercuts generate consistent values.

When calculating momentum, speed is just as important as mass, so throwing a fast vs slow punch DOES have a large effect. Doing a slow jab for ~500N and then getting ~1000N from a fast but all arms jab is actually exactly what I'd expect. You mention that the speed seems more important that putting weight behind the punch, but what are your numbers for fast jabs with weight behind them?

For crosses, are you noticing any difference between the 1000N and 1500N hits depending on how much weight you feel you're putting behind the punch? Are the crosses you feel are stronger showing a higher number, regardless of what that number is specifically? Comparing your jabs and crosses, 1000N up to 1500N is a 50% increase in power, so that's nothing to scoff at. I do agree that the gap should be a bit closer between your straights and hooks, but you're probably looking at a 50% speed increase on your hooks which is perfectly normal and would take you above 2000N by itself. For the rest of the difference (another ~50%), the question is if you truly have better real-life power transfer for how you throw hooks vs straights, or if I need to make some adjustments to the effective mass code. That's exactly what I'm trying to get a sense of from this thread and the numbers you provided here compared to what others will report are going to help me build a bigger picture to decide the answer to that and how to approach any changes.

Another thing to note, I will never be able to tell how "tensed" you are when you connect. If you punch twice with the same speed and form, but in one case you tense your muscles (either on impact as a "snap" punch or through the whole swing as a "push" punch) and in the other you don't tense at all and connect with a flop like a dead fish, I have no cue to detect that, so you'll see no difference in the force read-out.

Originally posted by lag.whisperer:

Anyway I can change the desktop view to the old VR view, I can record a video but the current desktop view doesn't show the numbers. Jabs are my weakest (1000N in avg), my left arm is weaker (about 200N less than my right hand for each type of punch). Hooks and upper are strongest (3000N avg about the same avg for uppers or hooks).

No way to change it, but adding a toggle like that would probably be a nice feature. I do think it would be useful to see you in third-person so I can see what your swing looks like and how your fist connects with the bag, but you're right that I should have the force read-outs visible on the viewing camera.

Do you jab with your left or right hand (orthodox or southpaw)? When just throwing one type of punch, are you noticing hits that you feel you're putting more body force into are showing higher numbers vs hits of a similar speed with less body force?

Originally posted by DarkOmen:

System: Oculus Rift
Experience: I'm an absolute beginner
Jabs (Left Hand): 500-650
Punches (Right Hand) 1200
Left Hook: 1300-2300
Right Hook: 1600-1900
Uppercuts: 1400-1700 (although there a lots of secondary hits registering at low 200-300s)

The problem I have with punching is the wide variety of force. It feels like it is not detecting the punches correctly at all times. Maybe I'm just not good enough :p. It would be a great debug tool if the punching bag would show where the hit was registered, like a heatmap.

Do you mean wide variety of force between the different punch types, or wide variety of force when you feel you're throwing the same punch repeatedly? From the standpoint of the game reading your numbers correctly, what you've listed here actually looks pretty ideal. Jabs will be fast, but will have less weight transfer from your body. A good right cross should be roughly the same speed, but will include more body force. Hooks will have similar body force transfer, but higher speed. Uppercuts have been sort of the odd one in the numbers reported so far, as their force reading should end up being similar to a straight punch, with their real power in a fight coming from connecting upward with your opponent's chin, forcing a backwards rotation of their head.

So we're seeing a ~100% jump from jabs to crosses, which does seem slightly high and suggests that you're not only throwing your crosses with more force than your jabs, but also at a higher speed. Then there's a ~10 to ~90% jump from crosses to hooks which would be normal. Your left hooks do have a fairly large variance, though. Are you able to feel a difference between a what you think is a "weak" left hook showing lower numbers and a "strong" left hook showing higher numbers?

An indicator of where you hit would be useful. I'm also going to try to get some voiceovers for the trainer, and as part of that I'm going to have the game look at how it's calculating your force when you hit the bag and give you tips on your form based on how it thinks you're throwing punches.

[lag.whisperer]

> I do think it would be useful to see you in third-person so I can see what your swing looks like and how your fist connects with the bag...

Ok, I'll upload a video later today or tomorrow.

> Do you jab with your left or right hand (orthodox or southpaw)?

southpaw with both arms.

> When just throwing one type of punch, are you noticing hits that you feel you're putting more body force into are showing higher numbers vs hits of a similar speed with less body force?

Yes definitely.

[RiFF]

Got the game when I first got VR a few weeks ago, just tried it again in the beta branch.

I'm glad you added in this bag feature because now I can see what is actually supposed to work and what isn't. Unfortunately, I think you may have set the bar a bit too high. I'm a Thai Boxing Instructor myself and I'm sure you have experience in fighting too to have the desire to make a realistic boxing game, so I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about.

When I'm working on the bag in-game, just as I want to when I'm fighting in-game, I'm not going the full speed and power that I would in an actual fight. There is no target to hit and as a result, going full power is going to wreck my shoulders and my elbows. I notice on the bag that when I go at my leasurely shadowboxing pace, the kind of pace I would want to play the game at, I'm hitting 800-1200 which is putting me in the lowest difficulty range. If I start going all out, I can manage to get it up to pro, but that's not fun for me, that's wild hooks and crosses that throws technique out the window and injures my shoulders. Further, once I'm in this state when I'm throwing punches at this speed, it makes me move my hands to my face to block quicker as well and I end up smacking the headset multiple times.

Overall I feel like if you lowered the speed requirement considerably, you'd end up with a more realistic fight feeling, more similar to technical sparring. Trying to make players go full real-fight force without having anything to actually hit isn't going to feel rewarding or make it feel realistic.

That being said, I love the work you've done on the game so far and I see how much potential it has to be amazing. I'm happy to provide any other input you're looking for.

[bshuf]

Originally posted by fyiandev:

When calculating momentum, speed is just as important as mass, so throwing a fast vs slow punch DOES have a large effect. Doing a slow jab for ~500N and then getting ~1000N from a fast but all arms jab is actually exactly what I'd expect. You mention that the speed seems more important that putting weight behind the punch, but what are your numbers for fast jabs with weight behind them?

For crosses, are you noticing any difference between the 1000N and 1500N hits depending on how much weight you feel you're putting behind the punch? Are the crosses you feel are stronger showing a higher number, regardless of what that number is specifically? Comparing your jabs and crosses, 1000N up to 1500N is a 50% increase in power, so that's nothing to scoff at. I do agree that the gap should be a bit closer between your straights and hooks, but you're probably looking at a 50% speed increase on your hooks which is perfectly normal and would take you above 2000N by itself. For the rest of the difference (another ~50%), the question is if you truly have better real-life power transfer for how you throw hooks vs straights, or if I need to make some adjustments to the effective mass code. That's exactly what I'm trying to get a sense of from this thread and the numbers you provided here compared to what others will report are going to help me build a bigger picture to decide the answer to that and how to approach any changes.

Another thing to note, I will never be able to tell how "tensed" you are when you connect. If you punch twice with the same speed and form, but in one case you tense your muscles (either on impact as a "snap" punch or through the whole swing as a "push" punch) and in the other you don't tense at all and connect with a flop like a dead fish, I have no cue to detect that, so you'll see no difference in the force read-out.

After doings some more sessions with the bag, I think I can consistently achieve 1500N with my right cross now and I'm happy about this :) What I'm not so happy about is that my jabs, even at a constant pace and weight behind them, fluctuate a lot, in my last test it fluctuated between 500s to 1500N!

Trying to do fast jabs + more weight behind them is technically difficult for me as my fist slows down too much when I try to put more power behind it.

Hooks seem 'OP' (or at least how I throw them) as now I can sometimes even reach > 4000N with them, but consistently > 3000.

Here is a video of me throwing some jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts as a complete non-boxer (i.e. no idea if I perform any technique correctly at all): https://youtu.be/bKOs4ok5mj0

-----------------

@Mark: as a non-professional I feel the opposite way: I WANT to put 100% behind the VR fights here, that way it makes the most 'fun' for me personally. I think maybe the lowest difficulty needs some tuning, but I don't think the higher difficulties should be 'nerfed' as some people like me do enjoy playing the game that way.

[Ian (Sealost)]

Originally posted by Mark:

Got the game when I first got VR a few weeks ago, just tried it again in the beta branch.

I'm glad you added in this bag feature because now I can see what is actually supposed to work and what isn't. Unfortunately, I think you may have set the bar a bit too high. I'm a Thai Boxing Instructor myself and I'm sure you have experience in fighting too to have the desire to make a realistic boxing game, so I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about.

When I'm working on the bag in-game, just as I want to when I'm fighting in-game, I'm not going the full speed and power that I would in an actual fight. There is no target to hit and as a result, going full power is going to wreck my shoulders and my elbows. I notice on the bag that when I go at my leasurely shadowboxing pace, the kind of pace I would want to play the game at, I'm hitting 800-1200 which is putting me in the lowest difficulty range. If I start going all out, I can manage to get it up to pro, but that's not fun for me, that's wild hooks and crosses that throws technique out the window and injures my shoulders. Further, once I'm in this state when I'm throwing punches at this speed, it makes me move my hands to my face to block quicker as well and I end up smacking the headset multiple times.

Overall I feel like if you lowered the speed requirement considerably, you'd end up with a more realistic fight feeling, more similar to technical sparring. Trying to make players go full real-fight force without having anything to actually hit isn't going to feel rewarding or make it feel realistic.

That being said, I love the work you've done on the game so far and I see how much potential it has to be amazing. I'm happy to provide any other input you're looking for.

I appreciate your feedback. I think I understand where you're coming from here, and it's precisely why the difficulty options are available to begin with. I guess it's misleading to label them things like "novice" and "amateur", but really the idea is to adjust the game to how fast/hard the player desires to swing or is capable of swinging. When you say you're not going the full speed and power of a real fight, that's exactly one of the use cases I'm thinking of by having the difficulty levels.

The difficulty levels are just boosters to how hard you're hitting for, and what you'd really be thinking when you hear the term "difficulty" is actually determined more by what opponent you're facing. I don't think anyone should feel slighted because they're not playing on the hardest difficulty, no matter what their experience level is or how in shape they are. It's going to be an individual choice in each player's case, and doesn't really reflect on your in-game performance as long as you've chosen the appropriate level for your situation. I'd rather the hardest difficulty be too hard and nobody ever use it, rather than have it be too easy and end up having the game be a trivial cakewalk for someone.

Because of your feedback, I'll likely be revising the language shown when you first get to the bag and am considering completely changing the names of the difficulty levels (maybe named after weight classes instead - or drop the metaphors completely). I'll also revisit the way the bag is suggesting difficulty. Currently it just takes the highest force from one of your recent hits for the suggestion, but I think I'll need to make it slightly more complex and take into account the type of punch that scored that force as well.

Full disclosure here because I don't want to mislead you with credentials I don't have: I actually have no boxing training and didn't know the first thing about boxing when I started this project, which was originally meant to be more like Punch-Out than a true simulation. The game has drifted in a more realistic direction due to community feedback, and I've learned a ton about the sport since then despite not actually being a boxer, myself.

What would be extremely helpful to me currently is your feedback on how different qualities of punches you're throwing result in different force levels from the punching bag in order to test out the new "body force / weight transfer estimation" system. Don't worry about the specific meaning of the number shown and throw at any level of effort you desire to. What I'm looking for is if you throw a punch that wouldn't have much force behind it, are you getting a lower reading than when you throw a punch that you feel should have more force behind it. I'm looking for players to kick the tires a bit and find where the new system is working well and where it's not, and feedback along those lines would be especially valuable coming from someone with experience as an instructor.

Just try not to reverse engineer how the game is determining your readings - what I'm looking for right now is your impression of how well the game is displaying the force of your punches (relative to each other) without you subconsciously being influenced by what you think the game wants you to do.

Another caveat is that I really have no way to know how tensed your muscles are, so if you throw a "snap" punch but you don't actually "snap" and instead connect like a dead fish, I won't have any way to know that.

Again, I truly appreciate you leaving feedback, and I hope you continue to visit the forum and share your opinion on new updates. Thanks!

[RiFF]

Originally posted by fyiandev:

I appreciate your feedback. I think I understand where you're coming from here, and it's precisely why the difficulty options are available to begin with. I guess it's misleading to label them things like "novice" and "amateur", but really the idea is to adjust the game to how fast/hard the player desires to swing or is capable of swinging. When you say you're not going the full speed and power of a real fight, that's exactly one of the use cases I'm thinking of by having the difficulty levels.

The difficulty levels are just boosters to how hard you're hitting for, and what you'd really be thinking when you hear the term "difficulty" is actually determined more by what opponent you're facing. I don't think anyone should feel slighted because they're not playing on the hardest difficulty, no matter what their experience level is or how in shape they are. It's going to be an individual choice in each player's case, and doesn't really reflect on your in-game performance as long as you've chosen the appropriate level for your situation. I'd rather the hardest difficulty be too hard and nobody ever use it, rather than have it be too easy and end up having the game be a trivial cakewalk for someone.

Because of your feedback, I'll likely be revising the language shown when you first get to the bag and am considering completely changing the names of the difficulty levels (maybe named after weight classes instead - or drop the metaphors completely). I'll also revisit the way the bag is suggesting difficulty. Currently it just takes the highest force from one of your recent hits for the suggestion, but I think I'll need to make it slightly more complex and take into account the type of punch that scored that force as well.

Full disclosure here because I don't want to mislead you with credentials I don't have: I actually have no boxing training and didn't know the first thing about boxing when I started this project, which was originally meant to be more like Punch-Out than a true simulation. The game has drifted in a more realistic direction due to community feedback, and I've learned a ton about the sport since then despite not actually being a boxer, myself.

What would be extremely helpful to me currently is your feedback on how different qualities of punches you're throwing result in different force levels from the punching bag in order to test out the new "body force / weight transfer estimation" system. Don't worry about the specific meaning of the number shown and throw at any level of effort you desire to. What I'm looking for is if you throw a punch that wouldn't have much force behind it, are you getting a lower reading than when you throw a punch that you feel should have more force behind it. I'm looking for players to kick the tires a bit and find where the new system is working well and where it's not, and feedback along those lines would be especially valuable coming from someone with experience as an instructor.

Just try not to reverse engineer how the game is determining your readings - what I'm looking for right now is your impression of how well the game is displaying the force of your punches (relative to each other) without you subconsciously being influenced by what you think the game wants you to do.

Another caveat is that I really have no way to know how tensed your muscles are, so if you throw a "snap" punch but you don't actually "snap" and instead connect like a dead fish, I won't have any way to know that.

Again, I truly appreciate you leaving feedback, and I hope you continue to visit the forum and share your opinion on new updates. Thanks!

It's great to hear a response like this one from a developer! I'm eager to see how much this game progresses knowing someone who cares as much as you do is behind it.

I understand what you're saying in terms of difficulty and I agree with that. Weight classes might also convey the same connotation though. Maybe options like "Shadowboxing - Light" "Sparring - Medium" "Full Fight - Strong" and an explanation besides each that it refers to how hard you're expected to hit.

I jumped back into the game to do what you were asking. You'll be pleased to know that relative to each punch, the force behind each one makes sense. I've attached a video so you can see what I'm doing in terms of speed and punch technique. At 00:00-00:25 seconds I was going at the pace I expected to be able to go at. All of my punches were consistently in the 800-1200 range. Nothing seemed wonky or underpowered compared to any other punch.

I know you said try not to reverse engineer how the game is determing my readings but because everything was going well, outside the scope of this video I tested out hitting with the side of the glove, which I suspect people might be doing accidentally, especially with the uppercuts since people sometimes don't know how to uppercut a heavy bag, and I saw the power drop dramatically. That might be the issue some people are having. When my punches hit the bag properly, everything seemed to make sense.

I sped up to how I would fight if I was actually sparring someone at 25 seconds to 40 seconds and everything jumped up to the 2500 range. Again, all of the punches seemed to make sense relative to one another.

Let me know if you'd like me to conduct any other tests! Happy to help. I'll make sure to keep following the updates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGLkcGN87wA

[Tr3v420]

Mark, great video man. Fyian, keep up the good work, this kind of communication really is amazing.

[lag.whisperer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlNaZAFDRVg

At the end after the fast jabs I tried to power punch with my whole body, I was able to get 4200N doing this. No way I can get that high doing my normal hooks.

[unwaveringresolve]

The speed of my punches seems to vary a lot. With a bit of a running start, I can get as high as 3500n with a right hook. In general, my hooks seem to have the most consistent speeds - right hook averages about 2200n, left hook about 1600n. My jabs, on the other hand, are all over the place - 900-1700n. I don't know if it's because I'm not hitting the bag squarely or what. My uppercuts also tend to vary along that range.

https://youtu.be/yIoJwMkjlDE

Question - why don't the numbers display on the video?

[Ian (Sealost)]

Originally posted by unwaveringresolve:

The speed of my punches seems to vary a lot. With a bit of a running start, I can get as high as 3500n with a right hook. In general, my hooks seem to have the most consistent speeds - right hook averages about 2200n, left hook about 1600n. My jabs, on the other hand, are all over the place - 900-1700n. I don't know if it's because I'm not hitting the bag squarely or what. My uppercuts also tend to vary along that range.

Thanks for the numbers. I'm only worried about inconsistency if you feel you're being very consistent with how you're throwing and landing hits. In Update 15.7 and before, the force reading was basically only based on the speed of your fist. Update 15.8 tries to infer how you're moving your body and transferring your body mass into your punch. What I'm looking for in this thread is if you feel you're throwing a better hit with more body weight transfer, are you getting a higher result?

Originally posted by unwaveringresolve:

Question - why don't the numbers display on the video?

I have all UI elements hidden from the third person camera. In the next update, I'll be showing the damage numbers to the spectator cam, as well as moving it in closer when you're at the bag, and giving you the option to toggle it off completely if you'd prefer.

[atlas974]

Hello!
I'll give some numbers here too:

Quick jab (quick without lot of "mass put behind"): 900N
Strong jab: 1200-1500N
cross:1100-1800N
Quick uppercut:1300-1800N
Raise uppercut (get some power from legs to increase the speed of my uppercut): 3000-3500N

@Fyiandev: good job on the game, it's awesome to see you as much implicated in this with us!
I guess you use the "m*a" formula to get the force of the punch "m" being the mass of the arm or transfered mass and "a" being the acceleration you might got from the controller? Or do you use kinectic energy formula?

Is this update calculating the transfered mass by looking at the headset and controller comparative mouvement to guess the body mass factor being transfered in the punch?

[Diabolic]

From my experience the readings are sufficiently consistant. Hooks around 1500 to 2500, still consistant with harder punches and haymaykers 3500-4000. Uppercuts around 1500 to to upwards of 3000. Jab 1000 to 2500 from light to hard. Just rough numbers, it's been a few days since, but it did feel consistant.