In-Depth Criticism, Analysis, and Feedback

[FifthHorsemaN]

(long read ahead)

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TL;DR

- Consumables should stack
- Enemy Detection needs fix/adjustment
- Shotgun Spread is a cliche + general weapon balance
- Door Scanning is a poor mechanic
- Forced Alarms should have alternative
- Ammo Limitations needs rework
- Melee Combat is shallow
- Singular Purpose Items should be more useful
- Scout Invincibility is a substitute for good design
- Enemy Introduction shouldn't be unforgiving
- Forced Gameplay needs to allow for flexibility
- less than 4-player missions shouldn't be neglected
- other minor issues + sentry behavior
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I've been following this game for a long time and participated in the pre-releases. I was one of the few to complete the alpha in a duo, and currently have completed D1. My overall impression from the alpha was positive, and I cut it some slack, but some design choices are making me a bit concerned. Some carried over from alpha which I never expressed, but will here.

First thing I want to note which my criticism will center around:
Challenge without arbitrary limitations that result in higher difficulty, and forcing styles of play.

I understand the premise of GTFO, and respect the work it has taken, but there are faults with it that seem to me to be a worrying series of oversights and missed opportunities. So let me explain and offer some solutions to some of the prominent flaws I see:

No Stacking
Perhaps the worst and most obvious design decision that illustrates the primary point of this post. You cannot stack or combine like consumables, for 100% no reason. How this even passed through internal testing and kept up until EA is almost mind-boggling. Not to be insulting, but it's just such a clear limitation that only serves to make the experience more tedious than necessary.

Enemy Detection
I am uncertain if this is a bug or not. Often when killing in stealth, enemies are seemingly randomly triggered to an alerted state (red) when at great distances, while enemies closer to the eliminated enemy remain dormant. This happens even when the enemy at a distance is NOT already glowing. If they were it would be understandable, but currently the aggro is random and completely unfair at times.

Shotgun Spread and General Weapon Balance
I wish the industry would part ways with this tiresome shotgun design cliche. There are plenty of ways to balance shotguns that aren't such a blatant departure from their IRL counterpart. Namely, give them their spread back, and reduce penetration, fire rate (pump), mag size, etc compared to rifles.

As a general note, many weapons can use a second design pass. At the moment, the AR and either shotgun seems like the best choice for most situations. The MG needs a proper pool and mag size; the Revolver needs a larger pool as does the Sniper which needs more purpose than just a scout killer; the DMR should excel as a precision weapon but also suffers from a poor ammo pool, etc, etc. These need to be balanced according with ammo weight (see Ammo Limitation below), recoil, penetration, and everything else that goes into gun balance. They should each have their own personality and purpose. Gunplay should be rewarding and calculated, but feels very sloppy and unpredictable.

Door Scans
"Who would design such a system?" That is the first thing I asked myself. Why does it require all personel? Why does it spread to random spots of no importance, and why so slowly? I can feel the game reach through my screen and slap me, reminding me it's a game. It's nonsense, and not fun. The idea of holding out is great, but forcing the player to be immobile with no wiggle room is not. The current system allows little chance for clutch if two or more teammates go down, preventing good players from carrying bad ones, and reducing the fun for everyone.

Solution: Allow the player room to maneuver in such a way that doesn't force them to practically stand still and take hits or force them to retreat and allow spawns to continue to the point where they stand no chance to return to the scanning circle.

Forced Alarms
Many others have already covered their distaste of this aspect. I understand the desire to force challenge and action by the expenditure of resources, but it doesn't sit well with me that there is no alternative, and it doesn't make total sense that a door would be guaranteed to sound alarm BEFORE it even scans in the first place. Perhaps my biggest gripe is that players who enjoy the challenge of 2-player co-op are given the shaft. INB4 "Designed around four players" I'll address this later on.

Solution: Perhaps consider "hacking" equipment as a tool to take up a slot for those confident in their stealth. If they screw up, the alarm sounds and then they have a useless slot to deal with enemies. Also consider the scans NOT sounding alarms for players who have completed the map in perfect stealth up to that point.

Ammo Limitation
There shouldn't be any. Any person would rightfully hoard all the ammo they could find at the cost of perhaps being a bit more sluggish. The arbitrary limitations here are irritating and unrealistic. Hundreds of SMG rounds but only a (literal) handful of sniper rounds? This tells me even thinking in terms of volume and weight, this wasn't taken into consideration. That leaves these caps to the mercy of gameplay balance, which I'm not even sure they would negatively effect, but rather make more interesting.

Solution: Rework the ammo balance. Introduce an ammo weight. Players who can carry more will have reduced movement. Players who are efficient with ammo (DMR) would be granted a benefit from this as they could use less rounds to kill the same number of enemies. When deciding who to give ammo to, teammates can entrust their decisions to better marksman while providing themselves with greater mobility.

Melee Combat
The idea of a charged shot for melee never made much sense to me. It's being treated in the same way as "hold breath for stability when aiming" whereas you somehow are forced to release...but that's not how it works IRL. The strongest part of the swing is when momentum is the greatest. Watch any video of using a two-handed weapon (splitting wood, etc). I think it would work better if it were a system akin to "active reload" where the swing charges and you release at the right time. Simply holding an object in place doesn't grant you greater strength over time. Just a thought, but I'm not holding my breath for a rework.

More importantly, a proper cancel/block mechanic should be reserved for RMB. Shoving is entirely useless, but if it were to be kept, it should be block + attack. Blocking would negate some damage for those times where it's inevitable you're going to get hit. I'd also implement lighter melee attacks while using guns.

I hope we can expect knives and other weapons that require optimal positioning and finesse (i.e. pointing directly at head, approach from behind, etc.) balanced with kill time, noise level, aggro chance, and other stats.

Singular Purpose Items
In the future I'm sure we'll see more equipment, but I would like to make some observations about potential and utilization:

Generally, the large flashlight is a useless item. It can't be set down like a sentry, it doesn't slow down or disrupt the behavior of our photosensitive foes, it doesn't provide notably better clarity in foggier rooms (can blame the excessive bloom), it just takes up space 95% of the time.

Glowsticks can only be thrown, not retrieved, not held as lanterns in pitch-black, and have an utterly pathetic lifetime. I'd expect these to be less disposable, and less abundant on maps.

Fog Repellers clear fog. They also make noise, but don't attract attention nor mask the sound of moving.

Invincible Scout
The scout is a good enemy design up until it turns invincible. It's nonsense this organic creature can somehow suddenly absorb a sniper mag to the head after it's alerted. A better approach would be to have it immediately and frantically run around screaming making it difficult to shoot, perhaps moving in the opposite direction of detection. The longer it screams, the larger the spawned horde will be, providing incentive to kill it asap.

Invincibility without a practical reason or sign is introducing artificial difficulty to compensate for lack of proper design. This again allows for no recourse for players who can react quickly and accordingly and lowers the skill ceiling of the game.

Enemy Introduction
The spiked enemies in C2 were introduced gracefully. We were given a chance to observe their appearance and witness their abilities in a small area, with limited repercussions, and allowed to do so early on. This was perfectly acceptable.

The invisible enemies at the end of D1 were the complete opposite. "Oh you made it to the end? Well phug u!" We have no idea they existed, they came in large numbers, were not seen by sentries, couldn't be seen without fog, and were introduced late in the level, and while we were supposed to be standing on the scan circles. I appreciate a challenge as much as I do true horror, but that was akin to a jumpscare. Cheap, and unfulfilling. Which brings me to my next point:

Forced Gameplay
The end of D1 essentially requires biotrackers or the team is destined to fail. Not only on the first try, but consecutive attempts. I understand the need for planning, but there's no way to plan for the unknown. The biotracker for experienced players has been essentially useless up until D1. Now it must be taken, or again, there's no recourse. Just as C1 works best with 4 sentries. So there's a problem here of necessarily dying to know what the threat is, and then only taking exactly what you need the next time. I'm of the opinion that an experienced team should be able to conquer any situation without prior knowledge. That is not the case.

Solution: Add flexibility. Figure out some way to allow players the means to solve their predicament. If they're going to require specific tools, put them in the map so they can swap out. Is there going to be a new threat? Give them a taste first that's not as unforgiving as an inevitable wipe.

Difficulty, Incentives, and 4-player vs less.
I think the difficulty is in a decent spot, barring some major issues like the random aggro problem and the "Spike" attack distance and invisible attacks bugs. I think it should stay relatively the same. I'm in favor on the increased challenge of 2-player co-op, and do NOT want to see the game scaled. Rather, I would prefer to see greater incentives for those 2p games. When progression is eventually added, a simple example would be rather than [X] amount of experience for completing as a 4-man team, 2 players would earn [X]x4. Perhaps something cosmetic, or any number of rewards. It would add toward replayability and would be a nice way to keep more hardcore players interested without adding another hard-coded difficulty option.

I understand the concern that "if you make it possible for 2 it's going to be too easy for 4". Well, that's where intelligent game design comes in. Like I said in the beginning, perhaps the two players will have NO choice but to complete the level 100% stealth, else the scans will sound the alarm and they're hopeless, whereas 4 players will be able to have room for error. Going back to ammo considerations, if there's no limit on it, 2 players will be able to carry the same ammo as 4, but be considerably more encumbered than 4 players splitting the weight. This means shot prioritization and placement is more critical. I know the game is primarily for 4 players, but I see no reason why to not cater to those players than appreciate the higher skill ceilings, and not reward those veterans who have put in the time to learn the game mechanics inside and out. Lastly, If the game dies, the "godlike" players and extremely devoted who would like to still play can still solo missions by their lonesome.

Minor issues:
Increased Volume at Drop
Excessive Bloom and Flashlight Falloff
Running and Reloading Isn't Possible
Security Doors Can't Be Closed For No Reason
No Auto Center Upon Opening Map
Enemies screaming upon death/beheading

Sentry Behavior
During the alpha I expressed my disappointment with the performance of the sentry. Early on, I tested it: 1 sentry (burst) versus a medium-sized aggro room. At least half of all the enemies (maybe 15 or so) made it past. We learned that the target acquisition time and accuracy was pretty poor if not given enough room to breathe. I was met with the rebuttal of "What, you wanted it to kill the entire room and do your job for you?" well yeah, within reason. I don't want to be forced to stock up on multiple sentries to handle a swarm I could take care of myself with an MG (assuming real MG capacity). I don't want to be forced to babysit something that's supposed to be watching my back.

Solution: Allow limitations like less accuracy, slower targeting in foggier rooms (provides more meta use for fog repeller too). Otherwise, have them shoot everything that steps into the laser without missing. Sound too OP? Make them weigh more, make them expend ammo faster to ensure nothing gets by, which in turn makes them more expensive for refills. So basically: more reliable + expensive > less reliable + less expensive. This would work well as an upgrade, and if this is something that is planned, then this criticism is mostly moot.

As much as I would like to provide further critiques of more insignificant features and problems, these are what I find most important and in need of attention. I hope it does not fall upon deaf ears. I've only written this much because I care about the game, and would hate to see the wasted potential as we've seen in so many games prior.

[Rycebay]

yeah i really like the resident evil 2 campaign too i thought it was very fun and spooky at the same time good review

[Rycebay]

Yeah for honor has some bugs but this is to real

[Kollus]

Well done OP, nice and fair analysis.

Stackable consumables have been requested by many people, I really hope this is not what they wanted but "a detail forgotten amongst the huge amount of work to be done". Also, a Drop button might be needed, it's pretty annoying having to look for another consumable to swap with just for giving a bunch of glowsticks to your friend.

Love the ammo weight idea, would be perfect also for a smaller team approach as you said.

Personally I'll add that weapons in general need some tuning, non shotguns alone.
I can understand the design idea behind it, but I can't really stand the fact that a semiauto pistol punches more than an assoult rifle.
Full auto weapons in general need either more ammo or, preferably, a way more controllable recoil pattern, not to mention spread going full open after 1-2 shots. I am often afraid of shooting because i know I'll probably waste bullets (and i mostly play fps and shooters in general, I'm definitely used to this kind of gameplay). I'm totally fine with recoil, even huge, but in GTFO it feels random in a frustrating way, i don't feel i will ever be good at controlling it by practicing. I'm thinking, for example, at PUBG: among popular shooters it has probably one of the most affecting recoil, yet it has its pattern and you can learn how to handle it properly.

Also, the ADS toggle bug I've mentioned in another post, makes shooting even more frustrating if you use that settings, which I'm used to since 10+ years and I surely don't want to change my habit for one game.

[livinghell]

Perfect analysis. No running and reloading feels very broken.Gun behavior is not explainable sometimes, sentry misses too often. The weight of the ammo taken on deadly mission is lower than the weight of the books, which children carry to school each day.

[pixL]

+1

[Dubleron]

+1
well done my friend

[Shrinkshooter]

The forced gameplay part grinds my gears. It's obtuse and blatantly hamfisted design decisions that are clearly put in place to force players into a certain behavior. You can practically hear the thought process of the development team as these things play out.

"We want players to instakill the scout or else. How do we do this? Invincibility!"
"We want to make things more "challenging" for players while making our atmosphere seem starker than it is. How do we do this? Flashlights shine less than six feet and glowsticks die in a minute! Oh and of course totally arbitrary ammo cap limits, because balance. But you can carry two firearms, a metal hammer and a deployable gun."
"The biotracker is totally unnecessary for good players. How do we force them to bring it along? Let's add invisible enemies, give absolutely no hint or warning that such a thing even exists, make them spawn at the end of the mission, and have everyone die because there was no way to know or prepare for this other than being killed by it. Then they'll learn their lesson and bring along this convenient tool that magically solves this very specifically designed problem!"

I could go on. Forcing your players to play a specific way in order to overcome your obstacles makes you, at best, a bad game designer, and at worst, an obstinate insufferable person who had some secret fetish for making people dance to your tune. Now yes, of course this sort of concept applies in a general, broad sense to practically every game mechanic ever, but these particular ones are such obviously shoved in here for such a clearly intended purpose that it's angering. It's like the game designer is sadistically grinning behind the screen because you have to do X if you want result Y.

Whoever implemented these decisions needs to sit down and have a long, hard think about what actually good design is.

[FifthHorsemaN]

Thanks for the feedback. I have updated the review with a word on general gun balance and sentry behavior. Really, gun mechanics and melee mechanics and balance could be a similarly long review all on its own, but I'm not going to sit here and design the game for them (as much as I'd like to...pls hire me 10CC kthx). Hopefully it's just a rough implementation and everything is subject to change, because there's a lot that should.

[Darth Chalupa®]

+1

I'm on board for most of this.

Games need to stop treating shotguns, like tickle launchers after 15 feet. Like another poster mentioned, all weapons need a tune up. They just feel...meh. I just feel like the feedback is poor. Beyond stats, the weapons just feel lame. I'm not sure the words to describe it. Some games feel like your actually filling a monster full of holes. This feels more like laser tag.

Forced alarms are a poor mechanic. Reward teams for a job well done, not railroad them into an ammo draining fight.

Security scans are lame. I get some system wants to scan the area or whatever, but it shouldn't require all players to participate. ESPECIALLY with forced alarms. If your team knows the alarm is going to go off, they should also be allowed to prepare for what they know is coming. Reward solid teamwork. Not forcing a mechanic that makes no sense.(because the door scans to scale to party size)

Ammo... I get we're inmates sent in because we're expendable, but why half ammo? They're giving us nasty weaponry, gear, and advanced equipment. Whomever sent us down, obviously would like to see us succeed, and give us a fighting chance. So why all this gear and weaponry, just to send us in half-♥♥♥♥♥♥? I feel another couple magazines is still cheaper than a bio tracker or sentry gun.

I had something else i really really wanted to add, but I'm having a brain fart. Reserving the right to edit this post later.

I remembered!:
FEEDBACK DURING THE DROP! The drop should be exciting every time. There's really no sense of motion or velocity though. I imagine we are falling a great rate of speed, to an incredible depth, but it doesn't feel that way. You sit in darkness. The cage shakes some. You can see the mask of the your team. I think by the third drop, I was already picking up my phone to check the latest celebrity gossip. It's just boring. Add a better sense of what's actually happening. I think lights flashing by at increasing speeds, would by themselves, give you a sense of plummeting into the darkness below. I'm also not saying you should be able to see the bottom, or even very far, but I've played a few games that have a pucker inducing effect from height. Just something other than the expressionless mask of the person next to you.

[GryphShot]

These are all great points. I particularly like your ideas about scans/alarms (invincible scouts too).

I usually play with a group of 2 or 3 and we're stuck on B1/B2. The consecutive alarm doors keeps ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ us.

[Darth Chalupa®]

Originally posted by GryphShot:

These are all great points. I particularly like your ideas about scans/alarms (invincible scouts too).

I usually play with a group of 2 or 3 and we're stuck on B1/B2. The consecutive alarm doors keeps ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ us.

It just forces you to expend ammo and health. Which is now the mindset I have when reaching a security door :/. I feel it detracts from the fun, more than adds tension and excitement.

[Kami]

Originally posted by Darth Chalupa®:

+1

I remembered!:
FEEDBACK DURING THE DROP! The drop should be exciting every time. There's really no sense of motion or velocity though. I imagine we are falling a great rate of speed, to an incredible depth, but it doesn't feel that way. You sit in darkness. The cage shakes some. You can see the mask of the your team. I think by the third drop, I was already picking up my phone to check the latest celebrity gossip. It's just boring. Add a better sense of what's actually happening. I think lights flashing by at increasing speeds, would by themselves, give you a sense of plummeting into the darkness below. I'm also not saying you should be able to see the bottom, or even very far, but I've played a few games that have a pucker inducing effect from height. Just something other than the expressionless mask of the person next to you.

800m for D1 240m for A1 not so deep in fact ( IRL fishing limit for exemple is 800m and the deepest mine in the world is 3800m deep )
the drop is clearly a loading screen ( unable to flash your light during like 4/5 second after drop )
and you can skip animation to loading screen by pressing tab for 5sec

[Antimttr]

I think the prisoners often have to whisper, speak or shout to make the whole thing even more threatening.
With many slow phases, apart from the music, it is just too quiet, which suffers from the otherwise very oppressive atmosphere.

[FifthHorsemaN]

Kami,
You missed his point. I'm sure he knows it's a load screen, he just wants it to have better effects to better show the fall. Anyone who glances over at the screen without seeing the initial drop, won't know they're falling if there's no sound. The cloth should be moving, there should be more turbulence, and some type of passing object, even subtle particle effects would help. Lights would work too if that makes sense, but I'm pretty sure it's just a hole in the earth, not a vertical lit shaft. This isn't a major concern by any means, but I wanted to clarify.

Amok,
Personally, I have dialogue turned off. I want to be my character, but more importantly don't like the extra chatter getting in the way of IRL dialogue. I wish they wouldn't have invested time with voiceovers in a non-story driven game. Bad decision and a waste of resources, imo.

[Kawira]

Fair points but please don't touch the recoil. The problem with automatic weapons is their lack of stopping power actually. I can hit monster 4 times but it's still alive and well which is annoying. At very least they should be maimed like in Starship Troopers but generally assault rifle feels much more worse than sentry but since utility drops are pretty even you'll have to rely on your gun anyway cos you'll never luck out on many refills

Also like guy in other post said said - more RNG especially in items and objectives department. No point of bigger maps if you go to same places everytime