GTFO
Bloodwest Apr 7, 2020 @ 4:38am
Do devs confirm new Rundown being doable before it's launch?
I've read one dev's post recently that C1's difficulty might be overlooked at some point. So I wonder if developer/alpha testing team actually completes rundown at least once before launch it? I mean, yeah some already got it by this point though it may require some "unconventional" means so I'm not sure everyone of them done it "legit" way. Like do you make sure rundown is doable without glitches or some other sort of abuses?
Last edited by Bloodwest; Apr 7, 2020 @ 4:39am
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Showing 1-15 of 34 comments
MessiahofMelons Apr 7, 2020 @ 5:05am 
Id say yes they did complete it. The overlook they are refering too is likely that they can beat it. But they are also the developers testing and playing the game daily and have extensive knowledge of the rundown.
Fosil Apr 7, 2020 @ 6:13am 
C1 is doable without using any exploits. you just have to be good at doing stealth.
livinghell Apr 7, 2020 @ 6:15am 
Some levels have very special positions, not glitches but a kind of "bunkers", "boosts" and "shields" where you can survive almost against any enemy with 90 % probability to get no damage. You can also split the team and let 1 player run circles while other 3 players kill his followers. You can concentrate the triggered enemy wave at 1 point with dense c-foam and prepare 1 mine behind it killing the whole wave. There are many unconventional tactics beyound "hide behind the turrets and shoot" if you play in a premade team. I am just not shure how enemy movement logic works. Sometimes they just ignore open doors and run to the closed doors to break them.....
Last edited by livinghell; Apr 7, 2020 @ 6:17am
Li77lehorn Apr 7, 2020 @ 6:41am 
Originally posted by Fosil:
C1 is doable without using any exploits. you just have to be good at doing stealth.

What counts as an exploit? I just thought many things had been fixed/tweaked now.
inspector-81 Apr 7, 2020 @ 8:36am 
Yep, the levels get tested a lot.
Fosil Apr 7, 2020 @ 2:09pm 
Originally posted by Li77lehorn:
What counts as an exploit? I just thought many things had been fixed/tweaked now.

imo abusing AI pathfinding by jumping between several height levels to kite enemies infinitely without taking any damage. I dislike enemy kiting during alarms in general though.
Çaptain Ålpha Apr 7, 2020 @ 7:28pm 
there is 1 bug hunter who's solo'ed the whole rundown except D1
Midas Apr 7, 2020 @ 9:47pm 
I'm pretty sure they can beat it, but they beat it to test the glitches mainly not the difficulty. Game devs understand their game design really well obv so they usually underestimate the difficulty.
There are a lot of people who beat C1. It's a challenging game and not every one's team suppose to beat it easily.
Bloodwest Apr 8, 2020 @ 12:46am 
This level is a proof that voice chat isn't a panacea. No matter how good your lead or stealth play is people just get lost and panic during alerts so all you can do is lighten that load using "special" spots.
Oku Apr 8, 2020 @ 2:54am 
Originally posted by Bloodwest:
This level is a proof that voice chat isn't a panacea. No matter how good your lead or stealth play is people just get lost and panic during alerts so all you can do is lighten that load using "special" spots.

It's also proof that without high levels of coordination and people being able to go in with a strategy and be able to stick to it, completion is functionally impossible.
Last edited by Oku; Apr 8, 2020 @ 2:55am
Shrinkshooter Apr 8, 2020 @ 8:37am 
Originally posted by Midas:
Game devs understand their game design really well obv so they usually underestimate the difficulty.

I don't know how people can come to this erroneous conclusion. Developing a game by writing code or building components for it does not in any way translate to high levels of skill playing that game. You'll get more practice earlier on for longer than others, because you have access, but being a game developer doesn't make you a gaming god, even for your own game. I can't even count how many people must be better at DOOM than Id Software.

There are a lot of people who beat C1.

Weasel words. You don't know. You have no numbers, the only thing you can go on is personal experience. The reason the developers are even looking at C1 is because they DO have the numbers. They aren't judging it subjectively based on how difficult it feels to them, they have actual stats about the rate of success, and because that's why they're looking to tweak the mission, your claim rings totally hollow.

Also "lots of people" make over a million dollars every year, so I guess everyone's rich and it's all fine.

It's a challenging game and not every one's team suppose to beat it easily.

You can't use this as an excuse for something that's too far over the line. If they made an alarm room that gets swarmed with 20 hybrids at once, and put four of those rooms in a row with almost no health or ammo, that's bad. It's bad balance and bad design. A team might be able to beat it, but the act of it being possible to beat it doesn't suddenly mean this is good design and this is how the level should be built.

edit:

Originally posted by Bloodwest:
This level is a proof that voice chat isn't a panacea.

No, what it proves is that even with superior team understanding and coordination and faster communication, the vast majority of teams are still failing. This isn't making the point you think you're making. The clear rate would be even worse if the only teams that played C1 were all randomly matchmade. Your logic is utterly upside down.

Last edited by Shrinkshooter; Apr 8, 2020 @ 8:40am
Bloodwest Apr 8, 2020 @ 11:50am 
Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:
Originally posted by Bloodwest:
This level is a proof that voice chat isn't a panacea.

No, what it proves is that even with superior team understanding and coordination and faster communication, the vast majority of teams are still failing. This isn't making the point you think you're making. The clear rate would be even worse if the only teams that played C1 were all randomly matchmade. Your logic is utterly upside down.
Some people make it sound like voice communication is like 95% of success and C1 with its hardcore alerts is there to put statement to the test but this may be another interpretation which... kinda make sense, I guess? dunno
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove when you say about "worse with randomly matchmade". Stating obvious or something? In Discord you look for random people, so you play with random people. Matchmaking merely automates first part for you (looking for random people) and making it quick. Ofc having pro buddies is always neat but isn't this game a niche? As in "non-catering EA game" which scared off lots of people? I think that's the case. Online offers too small player pool to choose from so you basically hope those random people you mustered in your lobby are fine and with some luck you make it through ^^
Last edited by Bloodwest; Apr 8, 2020 @ 11:52am
Oku Apr 8, 2020 @ 12:16pm 
Originally posted by Bloodwest:
Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:


No, what it proves is that even with superior team understanding and coordination and faster communication, the vast majority of teams are still failing. This isn't making the point you think you're making. The clear rate would be even worse if the only teams that played C1 were all randomly matchmade. Your logic is utterly upside down.
Some people make it sound like voice communication is like 95% of success and C1 with its hardcore alerts is there to put statement to the test but this may be another interpretation which... kinda make sense, I guess? dunno
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove when you say about "worse with randomly matchmade". Stating obvious or something? In Discord you look for random people, so you play with random people. Matchmaking merely automates first part for you (looking for random people) and making it quick. Ofc having pro buddies is always neat but isn't this game a niche? As in "non-catering EA game" which scared off lots of people? I think that's the case. Online offers too small player pool to choose from so you basically hope those random people you mustered in your lobby are fine and with some luck you make it through ^^

The ability to have an understanding before hand of everybody's experience level, what they're comfortable doing, and what they're going to be doing, the ability to spend some time before hand strategizing and figuring out obstacles and how to overcome them, real-time voice communication between all members of the group, and the ability to actively talk about and figure out what went wrong or what went right during a run attempt are 95% of success. The other 5% is luck.

Discord LFG:
-Have to ask around looking for people who want to join, adding another level of human interaction to deter toxicity.
-Get to set up the terms of joining including experience level, willing to teach new players or not, completed the mission before or not, has mic or okay with some people not having one, etc etc
-Guaranteed that everybody will be in chat and able to strategize before Cage Drop.

Quick Matchmaking:
-Instantly dropped in with 3 other people, leaving that lack of seeing the other players as people.
-No way of setting up terms of joining, you just join regardless.
-No way of ensuring everybody will be willing to chat or have mics, resulting in lack of possible communication.

If you honest-to-god think there is no difference between an LFG party and Quickmatch Matchmaking, it's because you've only ever used Quickmatch, or you behave in such a way that people respond to you identically in both LFGs and QMs, in which case...you should stop.

There absolutely is a SIGNIFICANT difference between an LFG premade and hotjoining a bunch of randoms, and I'm sorry that you don't think so but there is. You can say there's not 100 times but you'll just be wrong 100 times. For YEARS matchmaking was only a thing for mindless content in video games. Anything that required actual thought, planning, and strategy to complete was gated off to only LFG. Putting matchmaking in everything is only a recent thing, and even then, when it's offered, it's rarely used for hardcore content.

Final Fantasy XIV is a perfect example of this. It offers the ability to queue for Extreme content with include dozens upon dozens of overlapping, complex mechanics with virtually no room for error and require everybody to position and respond perfectly or the raid wipes. You can't find groups for these in matchmaking. NOBODY wants to put up with matchmade Extreme Trials. You go in to the games LFR board and everything has groups up for it.

If there wasn't a difference as you say, this wouldn't be true. There'd be just as many people in matchmaking as there are in LFG, more even, because it'd be faster.

But there IS a difference, everybody who does these high tier content attempts knows there's a difference, and the same will be said for GTFO.

Matchmaking will exist, but the most success and least toxicity will always come from the LFG sections in the Discord or from premade groups of friends. GTFO matchmaking will end up notorious for being where you go to get trolled or to get called slurs, just like it is in any game that has a high difficulty curve.
Shrinkshooter Apr 8, 2020 @ 12:36pm 
Originally posted by Bloodwest:
Some people make it sound like voice communication is like 95% of success

I wouldn't say it's that high, but communication and teamwork is paramount. It's basically what the core game is built around. Anything that hampers either of those is, therefore, worse for performance. As such, VOIP is very important, and using only chat really gets in the way. It's somewhat less important for people who are skilled and played the mission before, but not having it is still a setback.

In Discord you look for random people, so you play with random people. Matchmaking merely automates first part for you (looking for random people) and making it quick.

"Random" in this context means random strangers you haven't spoken to or communicated with in any way. In Discord, you're grouping up with "random" people but you all "interview" each other before game start. You understand people's experience, what they're looking for, what they want to do, etc. You can determine whether someone isn't a good fit (my friend and I don't play with South Americans, for example). By the time you jump into the mission, those people aren't "random," you've all accepted the rest of them being there. With MM, none of that exists, in addition to inefficient communication via text.

Grouping via Discord (or whatever other VOIP client) is the superior option for both those reasons as opposed to matchmaking. Having VOIP isn't going to guarantee success, nobody would be stupid enough to claim that, but it prevents the very negative effects of having a slow and limited method of communication.
Bloodwest Apr 8, 2020 @ 12:43pm 
@Ark, That's really black pill approach. Why should game start right when players are found? When people ask for matchmaking, they expect appropriate one. Since it's p2p, someone has to be appointed a host beforehand and everyone must to press ready before host is allowed to start the game.
Have you read my previous post or it's just copypasta of yours?
Originally posted by Bloodwest:
Ofc having pro buddies is always neat but isn't this game a niche? As in "non-catering EA game" which scared off lots of people? Online offers too small player pool to choose from so you basically hope those random people you mustered in your lobby are fine and with some luck you make it through
You're stating obvious by saying that hardcore stack is better than randoms but not everyone has that possibility so that majority might as well receive more comfortable conditions for them to gather players to play with.
I'm doing well so far with random players tbh, none of them ever insulted me and I never insulted anyone of them, can't say the same about forums though.
Last edited by Bloodwest; Apr 8, 2020 @ 12:44pm
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Date Posted: Apr 7, 2020 @ 4:38am
Posts: 34