So let's talk about Planet Coaster's so called "Offline" capability.

[Hobbes]

First, a couple of core facts to put on the table.

Source 1 : https://support.frontier.co.uk/kb/faq.php?id=333

"Will I still be able to play offline?

Yes! After you have installed Planet Coaster via Steam and run it at least once you will then be able to use Steam's offline mode. You can find details about offline mode on Steam's support site here."

Source 2 : http://store.steampowered.com/app/493340/

"Incorporates 3rd-party DRM: Denuvo Antitamper"

Source 3 : http://www.game-debate.com/news/19209/denuvo-anti-tamper-drm-to-be-used-for-far-cry-primal-and-rise-of-the-tomb-raider?&page=4 (other news sites also carry the same wording in various flavours)

"Denuvo also has to phone home to authenticate itself every so often, so it’s going to need a working internet connection and access to the Denuvo servers. Should Denuvo cease to exist, access to your game ceases to exist. It’s also known that Denuvo carries with it a slight overhead that does in fact hamper performance in games."

-----

So, Frontier, are you pulling an Elite : Dangerous here? Is your supposed offline capability actually going to be much like your other game, promised but not delivered, because if you keep Denuvo in your game, you won't be able to deliver on the ability for the game to run in offline mode, and that means anyone who purchases the game, or already HAS purchased the game under the impression they might be able to play it on their laptop is going to get a very rude awakening soon enough.

I take it you -do- have an answer to this, yes?

Or are you going to hedge like you did on Elite Dangerous and much like in November then go "Oh, it's always online because you need to be connected for reasons"

Over to you Frontier.

EDIT : Derp, title brainfart. And I needed to stuff a smug emote in (yes, I own it)

[76561198185868419]

Publicado originalmente por Hobbes:

The 5% hit has been calculated and proved on multiple occasions, more often than not by actually -defanging- the executable in question and running the clean version afterwards. Funny how the clean one then yields an uptick in FPS and overall performance innit?

Well, I can run the non-protected and protected executables. What with having them on my work PC and all. And there's nowhere near a 5% difference.

Publicado originalmente por AndyC:

If you're not connected to the net, how would it know that there's an executable update pending?

It doesn't know! It continues working fine until you actually *replace* the executable. That's the point. As long as you run the game after updating it's fine. If you just update and go offline then it prompts you to say that you need to be online for the first time.

So please, tell me again how offline mode doesn't work?

Cheers

Andy

[LemonyNebula]

Publicado originalmente por Hobbes:

You've clearly missed out on what happened with Elite Dangerous then. Do thy research.

Please correct me if i'm wrong but Elite dangerous does not use Denuvo right?

I am aware that there where promises made about offline and that changed for the game but that was about content and direction wasnt it? its not entireley the same situation as this game using drm, aside from it being frontier.

[Hobbes]

Publicado originalmente por LemonyNebula:

Publicado originalmente por Hobbes:

You've clearly missed out on what happened with Elite Dangerous then. Do thy research.

Please correct me if i'm wrong but Elite dangerous does not use Denuvo right?

I am aware that there where promises made about offline and that changed for the game but that was about content and direction wasnt it? its not entireley the same situation as this game using drm, aside from it being frontier.

Sent a friend request, easier if I talk in realtime.

[Jacknm2]

Publicado originalmente por AndyC:

Publicado originalmente por Hobbes:

The 5% hit has been calculated and proved on multiple occasions, more often than not by actually -defanging- the executable in question and running the clean version afterwards. Funny how the clean one then yields an uptick in FPS and overall performance innit?

Well, I can run the non-protected and protected executables. What with having them on my work PC and all. And there's nowhere near a 5% difference.

Publicado originalmente por AndyC:

If you're not connected to the net, how would it know that there's an executable update pending?

It doesn't know! It continues working fine until you actually *replace* the executable. That's the point. As long as you run the game after updating it's fine. If you just update and go offline then it prompts you to say that you need to be online for the first time.

So please, tell me again how offline mode doesn't work?

Cheers

Andy

I think we need a hypothetical situation, however unplausable or not widely believed in this day and age.

I'm visiting "family" in "This place" using their wifi with givien permission to download a *1GB Patch* That fixed some severe issues that cropped up upon release, I couldnt do this at home became I'm essentially on a dial up connection in the middle of no where which is only active at certain times of day, I had to do the same to download the game. I had to leave suddenly but luckily for me I managed to finish the patch update, so i close everything, switch off the laptop and head off on my way.

I get home after my long journey and fancy relaxing by playing the game with my issues supposedly resolved, only to find I cannot start the game because *insert image from above posts*, why cant i play? This game description says it can be played offline why am i required to have an internet connection now after ive already installed it.

A bizarre situation in this day and age to be sure but there are still many area's without reliable internet, even in isolated parts of the US where internet prices are really high as a result. (being in the UK when i went to the west coast of scotland, stranrar, I found the only internet connection was someones house, the person who owned the cottage i was staying in, which was barely 300Kbps according to my laptop).

This part I'm only speculating, I have no idea who hobbes is, but it seems like they are wanting a victory here, for you the dev's to say exactly what i said in a above post "Internet connection required for first registration and Online functionality" because they do not want a repeat of the "Elite scandal" were "you went back on your word" about offline abilities at the very last minute.

[Hobbes]

Publicado originalmente por Jacknm2:

Publicado originalmente por AndyC:

Well, I can run the non-protected and protected executables. What with having them on my work PC and all. And there's nowhere near a 5% difference.


It doesn't know! It continues working fine until you actually *replace* the executable. That's the point. As long as you run the game after updating it's fine. If you just update and go offline then it prompts you to say that you need to be online for the first time.

So please, tell me again how offline mode doesn't work?

Cheers

Andy

I think we need a hypothetical situation, however unplausable or not widely believed in this day and age.

I'm visiting "family" in "This place" using their wifi with givien permission to download a *1GB Patch* That fixed some severe issues that cropped up upon release, I couldnt do this at home became I'm essentially on a dial up connection in the middle of no where which is only active at certain times of day. I had to leave suddenly but luckily for me I managed to finish the patch update, so i close everything, switch off the laptop and head off on my way.

I get home after my long journey and fancy relaxing by playing the game with my issues supposedly resolved, only to find I cannot start the game because *insert image from above posts*, why cant i play? This game description says it can be played offline why am i required to have an internet connection now after ive already installed it.

A bizarre situation in this day and age to be sure but there are still many area's without reliable internet, even in isolated parts of the US where internet prices are really high. (being in the UK when i went to the west coast of scotland, stranrar, I found the only internet connection was someones house, the person who owned the cottage i was staying in, which was barely 300Kbps according to my laptop).

This part I'm only speculating, I have no idea who hobbes is, but it seems like they are wanting a victory here, for you the dev's to say exactly what i said in a above post "Internet connection required for first registration and Online functionality" because they do not want a repeat of the "Elite scandal" were "you went back" about offline abilities at the very last minute.

I can assure you, large swathes of the US have -very- rickety net connections even now, get outside of the cities and it gets really wonky really fast. That's not counting anything outside mainland Europe (I'm lucky, I'm nominally based in the UK though I've been called to travel when work had me globetrotting to some real hellholes from time to time, protip, net connections from parts of Greece at this point? BEST OF LUCK.), so you have to assume that not everyone is on a stable, or reliable connection.

Most of the US isn't even on anything I'd deem stable or reliable, now I'm mostly retired, I have the blessing of both, so for me it's less of a concern, but I have issues with things like claims where it says the game will work fine offline, and then I get yanked in to work at an airgapped site for a few weeks and WHADYAKNOWS, it dun work. A tiger can go stir crazy without much to do except sleep and work, trust me

So, here's a "Not terribly strange" situation for you : Anyone who's worked in the armed forces can reliably tell you that they have often had to work in airgapped environments, why do you think when Microsoft tried to make the Kinect mandatory and "Always on" the US mil kicked up so much of a fuss? Operational security hazard much?

[76561198185868419]

Publicado originalmente por Hobbes:

Most of the US isn't even on anything I'd deem stable or reliable, now I'm mostly retired, I have the blessing of both, so for me it's less of a concern, but I have issues with things like claims where it says the game will work fine offline, and then I get yanked in to work at an airgapped site for a few weeks and WHADYAKNOWS, it dun work. A tiger can go stir crazy without much to do except sleep and work, trust me

Well, good job this isn't the case then - if you put Steam into Offline Mode and run the game, it'll continue to run until you take it out of offline mode or make a major upgrade to your pc.

Cheers

Andy

[Jacknm2]

Publicado originalmente por AndyC:

Publicado originalmente por Hobbes:

Most of the US isn't even on anything I'd deem stable or reliable, now I'm mostly retired, I have the blessing of both, so for me it's less of a concern, but I have issues with things like claims where it says the game will work fine offline, and then I get yanked in to work at an airgapped site for a few weeks and WHADYAKNOWS, it dun work. A tiger can go stir crazy without much to do except sleep and work, trust me

Well, good job this isn't the case then - if you put Steam into Offline Mode and run the game, it'll continue to run until you take it out of offline mode or make a major upgrade to your pc.

Cheers

Andy

What quanitfies as a major PC upgrade id be interested to know, there was a point last year i was testing out several different hardware in my own machine and it changed frequently. I'm aware that Changing CPU+Mobo would probably result in this. What about a simple Ram Upgrade? Change of GPU? Addition of more HDD's/SSD's?

[76561198185868419]

I'll have to double check when I'm back at work next week, but I'm reasonably certain we're talking about a motherboard / cpu upgrade - not simply RAM / GPU / HDD upgrades.

Cheers

Andy

[Jacknm2]

Publicado originalmente por AndyC:

I'll have to double check when I'm back at work next week, but I'm reasonably certain we're talking about a motherboard / cpu upgrade - not simply RAM / GPU / HDD upgrades.

Cheers

Andy

Thanks, any one using the Windows 10 free upgrade is in a similar position, having to "Phone home" using an associated Microsoft account upon any significant hardware changes but none the less are still able to use the software once this has been done.

[Jazz the Goose]

theres no proof that denuvo affects your performance in any way rly. ppl who keep hating have no evidence, they just hate for the sake of it. the only problematic thing about it is the encryption and what happens if denuvo should shut down

[Space Coward]

Publicado originalmente por CabbageStabber:

theres no proof that denuvo affects your performance in any way rly. ppl who keep hating have no evidence, they just hate for the sake of it. the only problematic thing about it is the encryption and what happens if denuvo should shut down

The proof is the fact that my own Denuvo games have run like ♥♥♥♥ and have insane usage, like Arkham Knight and Just Cause 3 asking for 12+ GB of RAM-- of course, they also hid it until the last minute, a telltale sign that they had problems that were never ironed out. I wish I could judge Denuvo for what it is now, but I haven't bought a single game [using it] since and have yet to try Deus Ex MD (which came with my FX 8320).

[cba6f050]

Publicado originalmente por LemonyNebula:

But I have a hard time believing that Frontier are outright lying and risking problems in the long run instead of just saying "Sure we will update the store page so everyone is aware it is always online."

I'm sure Frontier aren't outright lying about Planet Coaster, just as they weren't outright lying about Elite Dangerous when David Braben said "the single player has to connect to the server from time to time", and Michael Brookes clarified with "At the moment it's whenever you need to conduct a server moderated transaction like trading."

But despite that neither of these statements were actually false, a few weeks later when the game shipped we found "time to time" was actually every few seconds. ED turned out to be an always-online game which had somehow completely forgotten to mention 'internet connection' in the machine requirements.

So, it is not unreasonable for us to now ask Frontier to be a bit clearer than Andy's "if you put Steam into Offline Mode and run the game, it'll continue to run until you take it out of offline mode or make a major upgrade to your pc." which doesn't say actually say anything about the machine being offline.

I think the doubt would be settled by Andy or anyone else at Frontier's clear answer to this: For how long would Planet Coaster run without a network connection?

[cba6f050]

Publicado originalmente por LemonyNebula:

I am aware that there where promises made about offline and that changed for the game but that was about content and direction wasnt it? its not entireley the same situation as this game using drm, aside from it being frontier.

It wasn't just offline.

Frontier also promised Elite Dangerous would be DRM-free. When the game shipped it was found to have DRM (by the general definition e.g. Wikipedia). And when challenged, Frontier simply claimed the system they were using was not DRM.

I don't think anyone's suggesting Frontier is planning to try the same with Planet Coaster. But the fact is Frontier has here described as "entirely accurate" the FAQ stating the Denuvo system they are using is not DRM, while general opinion (see Wikipedia) says it is, and a confirmation that Planet Coaster "Incorporates 3rd-party DRM" has just appeared on the Steam store page.

So, some clarification from Frontier is in order.

[Space Coward]

My guess is that Workshop content will make the game require a phone home the moment you launch, then let you play otherwise once said phone home is done.

If there's anyone you know in the early bird alpha, they would be the ones to ask. If not, Steam Refunds are a thing, and I don't mind an occasional phone home to play a Rollercoaster Tycoon 4 that isn't downright insulting.

Command and Conquer 4 is an example of when this gets taken too far, though. Constant phoning home means more CPU pressure for no benefit, and Denuvo can (and have) destroy performance. No pressure, Frontier, but don't f--- it up! (but seriously, I can't wait to buy into this, Denuvo or not).

"If somebody told me I had to install malware to buy Rollercoaster Tycoon 4... I would ask for two rootkits instead out of guilt for not paying enough." -Me

[Hobbes]

As I've said, the proof will be in the eating on this one. Frontier's history isn't spotless, and Denuvo simply complicates matters, if Andy -is- correct, all well and good, but I do entirely question the implementation of Denuvo in the first place.

I don't see any benefit to it when ultimately using a pirated version would lock the person in question OUT of a lot of facilities which would add value to the game, and it would be far better simply to ditch Denuvo to reassure people that it WILL work without needing any form of "phone home" whatsoever, and to show that Frontier don't need to treat their paying customers as criminals.

You want to stop piracy? Make a game people want to support and buy, and don't show your consumers mistrust. Otherwise people may look at Denuvo, think "Oh stuff that, I'll wait for a group to patch it out so I know I'm getting the best performance" and then go that route.

Anyone who questions whether I buy my games, take one look at my profile. I dare you, there are people who SAY "I have a lot of games", and then there's people like me.

I really do have a lot of games. So that debate doesn't even start, mmkay?