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If you have more people dying than you have being born, you can not grow a natural population.
You continue to fail at understanding this. Until you are capable of grasping that single most important comparison, nothing else you bring up matters.
How close to the population caps were you? Because if you get anywhere near the set cap the game forces your birth rates lower so that you can't go over it.
Also i may have solved the mystery of my bad healthcare deaths. So, citizens wont necessarily prioritize their most urgent need. Once they set themselves on a task they wont stop until they do it... or they die from lack of healthcare in the process. So if it takes them forever to say walk across the map to a grocery (because my declining population left the bus garages unmanned) thats a big chunk of time they arent bothering to visit a hospital. Bonus if the citizen is retired, they walk half as fast as adults...
- healthcare, faith and all the levels of happiness are above 80
- absolutely no guerrilla and stable situation, no rebels, nothing like that
- contraceptives forbidden at max level, child welfare also. healthcare free (single payer), and even social welfare edict enabled
- emigration forbidden by constitution
- free housing (available houses for broke people)
- no unemployment
- hagia sophia so people dont die of bad healthcare
... and still no natural population growth? and over the course of the years the population declines?
then, i can tell you, the game is coded to not allow so
considering that i have faith and healthcare happiness over 80, food happiness over 90
considering that children welfare is at maximum level, forbidden contraceptives maximum, and forced marriage in the constitution
NOT A SINGLE COUPLE IN 1240 CITIZENS OF TROPICO HAD 3 OR MORE KIDS
i started checking citizens one by one. most couples had 0 kids, some 1 and some 2.
but considering the edicts that were at max, it is weird that i could not find one single couple that has 3 or more kids?
as i told you, the game is coded this way.
PS: please do not talk to me about game mechanics. i checked now, i have 330 hrs on record for tropico 6 and 720 hrs on record for tropico 5. i know perfectly how the game works.
We're going to compare hours now?
OK
Tropico 1: over 500 hours (pre steam)
Tropico 2: over 500 hours (pre steam)
Tropico 3: 162 hours recorded by steam (I played a ton offline that isn't tracked)
Tropico 3 Absolute Power: 95 hours recorded by steam
Tropico 4: 345 hours recorded by steam (I played a ton offline that isn't tracked)
Tropico 5: 428 hours recorded by steam
Tropico 6 BETA: 300+ hours(Played in multiple beta stages including private invites, not just public)
Tropioc 6 (launch): 294 hours (yea, I haven't played a ton since launch, I'll circle back to it again after a couple more DLC have dropped)
So yea, just my steam stats tracking alone shows me over 1600 hours in various tropico games, and if you add in the times that I played offline (while traveling) or the decade of playing tropico games before I even had them on steam it's well into the 3,000+ hours range.
Now lets destroy everything you've claimed since you have ignored every explanation and obviously don't even know how to test this correctly.
I'm not even going to pull a special game for this, all I had to do was look at several of my existing save games; some of which I had already decided to play with just natural growth. It takes far longer to play this way than when you allow immigration, but I do it for fun. This is a typical example from one of those random save games:
First of all I don't even worry that much about actual happiness. What matters is happiness compared to Caribbean happiness. Tropicans are less worried about being happy so long as they are happier than nearby countries. You know what else matters? Support, yea that's at 100%
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2201625530
Hey look at this, a completely blue bar
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2201608474
100% of my growth here is from births. There's 0 immigrants. Is it slow? Yes, I've explained this repeatedly for you. That's only 35 births in 3 years. Do you know how you maintain that growth? You better not have 35 deaths in those 3 years.
Do you still not grasp why this is important? Because if I had 35 deaths in those 3 years, there would be no growth. You keep stupidly refusing to compare the correct numbers
This is year after year growth, you have to maintain more births than deaths. If you aren't even aware of whether you are doing this, you have no clue what you are even looking at.
Also you keep spouting off about how you don't notice a difference when you activate something that would give you 5% boost to birth rate, well gee, I wonder why. Even with a total of 10% boost you would take that 35 birth rate and have? 38 births. And since births are random to begin with, you might not even get those 3 extra if your luck is bad. If you aren't tracking these numbers for 100's of years you won't have the statistical data to make any claims over whether a 5 to 10% boost is working correctly.
Let's understand how that breaks down:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2201610932
394 children, 1222 adults, 20 retired. That's only 1222 people able to work right now, and some of them might be in school so they aren't working an actual job at that point either.
Do you see this list of 394 children?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2201608518
For there to be population growth from natural births there needs to be less than 394 deaths in the next 20 years while these kids reach adult status and can join the work force.
But yea, you keep refusing to make that comparison.
And now to destroy your claim that the game is coded to only allow 2 children per family (2 adults), here's a family with 6 living children:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2201608559
Might I also point out that when children are displayed, it's only listing living children (or very recently dead). If a child has grown up and died (they can die from accidents, healthcare, etc) than the dead are removed from the family list and are no longer shown. So you won't even know if a family has had more than 6 kids, you'll only know if they have up to 6 currently living kids.
Yea, the game is coded to not allow more than 6 living children per married couple, but it's more than the 2 you claim, and I know from testing that if one dies the family is capable of replacing them (if the couple lives long enough).
There you go, that's a naturally grown population that grew up to and can now maintain a 1700+ population, 100% support, has 394 children growing up to replace any workers that retire/die in the next 20 years and has examples of families with up to 6 children (I could show you more with 3, 4 and 5, but 6 makes the point well enough on it's own).
As for the other numbers, the 3 unemployed are because they are college educated and I at that moment don't have open college jobs, since they are married they have no interest in taking jobs that are beneath their education, they'll take jobs as soon as I make some for them. The 129 vacant jobs are all recently built manual labor, farms, teamsters, etc. My population isn't large enough to fill them yet. Everyone else is either working, in school, is a child or is retired.
Over building would lead to more vacant jobs, at this sustained growth it would take another 10 years to fill those vacant jobs through natural birth. Which is an acceptable growth rate for natural population growth.
If you wanted to go faster than this, you allow immigration, it's just that simple (and extremely obvious)
If you want natural growth, you need to plan out for decades in advance and have a more intimate knowledge of the interactions of your decisions. And the most important factor is understanding how to have more births than deaths.
Or you can keep ignoring what matters, misunderstand how it all works and then make false claims like families can't have more than 2 children.
... dude.... WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? ARE YOU PAID TO CLAIM THAT THERE IS NO DEMOGRAPHICS ISSUE IN TROPICO?
it s not about competition. i am here to point out that while i am not a noob in the game there is certainly an issue. and the issue is that the game is coded in such a way to not allow natural growth without immigration. end of the story
I believe Kunovegas has empirically proven that it IS possible for natural growth, but it takes a tremendous amount of time and may not be the experience that some players are looking for. To be clear though, Aluk460 did claim that it was "impossible". This has actually inspired me to take a crack at a natural growth run... it seems like it would be frustrating.
The real question is: What's wrong with you?
I literally just posted screenshots that proved you are wrong and that the game is not coded to prevent natural growth. So no, it's not the end of the story. You just literally keep ignoring every explanation, refuse to provide relevant information and then ignore the proof that you are 100% wrong.
Either English isn't your primary language and we somehow have a huge language barrier between us or your logical ability to rationalize is completely backwards.
I just gave you screenshots showing 100% natural growth with 0 immigration which you claimed can't happen. And I just gave you screenshots of a family with 6 children, which you claimed can't happen.
Until and unless you are willing to actually pay attention and acknowledge the simple reality of the evidence I've already provided, you are just willfully ignoring reality.
Correct. I never said natural growth was easy, from my very first post in this thread I explained why it's so much slower.
I can tell you from experience that attempting purely natural growth takes a minimum of 10 times longer than using immigration. What you can accomplish in one year with immigration will take you 10 years with natural growth, and you won't even see the first real benefit for nearly 20 years until the children actually start entering the work force.
From there it's a matter of keeping tabs of all the factors I've covered numerous times in the previous posts.
If you have a desire to actually play a fast growing country, immigration is not just expected, it's required. You can't just make 100 new jobs a year and expect enough babies to be born and grow up that year to fill the jobs.
If you know how to play the economy with any degree of skill you will be creating 100's of jobs a year and there's simply no viable way to have a birth rate high enough to keep up with that while dealing with a population of only thousands, birth rates are simply not that high.
If you want a fully natural birth game, your timelines are in decades, not years and your growth curve is at the mercy of your birth to death ratio.
I've played both ways many times.
At maximum economic speeds your birth rates will just barely be useful to help maintain some replacement workers to cover deaths in the third to fourth decade of growth. But to get to that point you need enough adults to spur that growth to begin with and simply waiting for natural births to cover it will take a very long cycle.
And as I've already stated: once you get near the cap your birth rates will drop off just so you don't accidentally exceed your population cap (set in options)
As I've already shown and you can read for yourself in the picture, this is a 100% natural growth, it's all births, there's not a single immigrant shown in that graph:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2201608474
And this debunks the claim that a family can only have 2 children, this one has 6:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2201608559
I don't know how many more ways I can explain this to someone who simply refuses to follow logic, ignores picture evidence and doesn't know how to compare the most relevant numbers.
As for whether the natural birth rates should be higher than they are; I don't know or care one way or another as that was never the question I was attempting to answer. I'm simply proving that natural birth and population growth exist and that families can have more than 2 kids.
I won't get in the way of anyone who suggests they should be higher, that's a balance question and there's a lot of balance issues in this game that I do not agree with; but that's a very different conversation.
now, since kunovega is saying it s possible, tell me how you achieved it. which edicts, how much time, which industries, etc. how did you achieve natural growth without immigration.
Like I also said, if you want to suggest to the developers that natural growth should be faster, go ahead; I don't care one way or another. I simply pointed out that it exists, as do families with more than 2 children.
If you aren't willing to hire at least a few immigrants to start with, you are looking at around 100 years (or more if you don't know the game well) to get a population of 200 to reach 2000. Comparatively you could accomplish the same thing with immigrants in 20 years or less if your economy was strong enough. If you started with a population of 50 instead of 200, you can add another 40 to 60 years to your wait time.
I'm not going to write out in further detail everything required to rule for 100 years, all the information you need is already provided.
the thing is, it is extremely unrealistic in tropico 6, that is my point. and i do not understand why, but kinda ruins the game experience.
i saw your screenshot, you had around 125 job vacancies. i would never let the number of empty jobs be so high.
this seems to be a developers choice that i consider questionable