Is necromancy in the Elder Scrolls anything like daedra summoning?

[ALV]

I know in daedra summoning you can bind a daedra to do your will but what exactly energizes the a corpse being risen, is there soul left that is being enslaved and that's why it has the basic intelligence to follow its masters orders?

[Fear2288]

To put it as simple as I can…

Normal conjuring is the summoning of a spirit - usually a lesser Daedra - from Oblivion.

You can either summon the Daedra itself and make it manifest in the material world (Mundus) for a period of time, or summon it and mold it into something else.

For example, when you summon a bound sword, what you’re doing is bringing a Daedra - let’s say a Scamp - from Oblivion into the material world but you’ve molded it into a sword.

In either case, when the summoned spirit leaves Mundus it returns to Oblivion and reverts back to its original form.

Necromancy is a kind of conjuring but different enough to be considered its own school by many within the lore.

Instead of summoning a non-human spirit from Oblivion though, a Necromancer summons the soul of a mortal, sentient being and then binds it to a corpse or skeleton in order to reanimate it.

The corpse/skeleton needs to be whole in order for the ritual to have a good chance of success but it’s acceptable for the corpse/skeleton to be made whole through stitching and binding.

It also seems like it doesn’t really matter whether or not all the pieces are original. Meaning you can Frankenstein together a corpse or use the bones of various skeletons to create your whole vessel.

The reanimated corpse/skeleton is then bound to the necromancer’s will, but its intelligence seems to depend on the skill of the necromancer and maybe even the details of the ritual.

Most necromancers only seem capable of reanimating corpses/skeletons with little to no intelligence and merely act as mindless slaves with basic motor functions.

The Dragon Priests of Skyrim though appear to be more powerful and competent necromancers - not only successfully preserving themselves as liches but being able to raise and control the Draugr who seem to possess some level of basic intelligence and the ability to speak and use the Thu’um in some instances.


Additional thoughts:

The one part of necromancy that seems to be a bit fuzzy for me is where the souls come from.

I don’t think it ever explicitly states that souls trapped within soul gems are the only means of reanimating a corpse/skeleton.

However, soul gems are usually common sights among Necromancers’ belongings and around their ritual sites.

Yet…you can cast spells or use scrolls/staves to reanimate the dead without having to use a soul gem.

So the question remains: do you HAVE to use a filled soul gem, and the “on the fly” spells/scrolls/staves are just like this for gameplay purposes, or can souls be pulled from places like the Soul Cairn without needing a gem?

Also, if souls can be pulled from other places what are those places besides the Soul Cairn? Or is the Soul Cairn the only place?

I’m assuming that necromancer’s can’t pull a soul from a place like Sovrngarde; however, we do know it’s possible to summon spirits from there via the shout that allows us to call a couple to aid us in battle for a period of time.

Another thing I found interesting is that the soul used to reanimate a corpse/skeleton can be ANY soul - it doesn’t have to be the soul which originally inhabited the body being reanimated and it sounds like in most cases it’s not.

So you may take Narfi’s body and reanimate it with a filled black soul gem you found tucked away in a barrow and essentially be binding a centuries old Nordic woman’s soul to his corpse.

When your reanimated Narfi “dies” - that Nord woman’s soul then transfers over to the Soul Cairn for all eternity. Meanwhile Narfi’s soul is…who knows where.

Maybe he’s trapped in some soul gem tucked away in his killer’s knapsack or he passed on to wherever it is that “normal” souls go to (because Sovrngarde seems to be like Valhalla - reserved for Nordic heroes and those who fought and died bravely in battle).

[ALV]

Publicado originalmente por Fear2288:

To put it as simple as I can…

Normal conjuring is the summoning of a spirit - usually a lesser Daedra - from Oblivion.

You can either summon the Daedra itself and make it manifest in the material world (Mundus) for a period of time, or summon it and mold it into something else.

For example, when you summon a bound sword, what you’re doing is bringing a Daedra - let’s say a Scamp - from Oblivion into the material world but you’ve molded it into a sword.

In either case, when the summoned spirit leaves Mundus it returns to Oblivion and reverts back to its original form.

Necromancy is a kind of conjuring but different enough to be considered its own school by many within the lore.

Instead of summoning a non-human spirit from Oblivion though, a Necromancer summons the soul of a mortal, sentient being and then binds it to a corpse or skeleton in order to reanimate it.

The corpse/skeleton needs to be whole in order for the ritual to have a good chance of success but it’s acceptable for the corpse/skeleton to be made whole through stitching and binding.

It also seems like it doesn’t really matter whether or not all the pieces are original. Meaning you can Frankenstein together a corpse or use the bones of various skeletons to create your whole vessel.

The reanimated corpse/skeleton is then bound to the necromancer’s will, but its intelligence seems to depend on the skill of the necromancer and maybe even the details of the ritual.

Most necromancers only seem capable of reanimating corpses/skeletons with little to no intelligence and merely act as mindless slaves with basic motor functions.

The Dragon Priests of Skyrim though appear to be more powerful and competent necromancers - not only successfully preserving themselves as liches but being able to raise and control the Draugr who seem to possess some level of basic intelligence and the ability to speak and use the Thu’um in some instances.


Additional thoughts:

The one part of necromancy that seems to be a bit fuzzy for me is where the souls come from.

I don’t think it ever explicitly states that souls trapped within soul gems are the only means of reanimating a corpse/skeleton.

However, soul gems are usually common sights among Necromancers’ belongings and around their ritual sites.

Yet…you can cast spells or use scrolls/staves to reanimate the dead without having to use a soul gem.

So the question remains: do you HAVE to use a filled soul gem, and the “on the fly” spells/scrolls/staves are just like this for gameplay purposes, or can souls be pulled from places like the Soul Cairn without needing a gem?

Also, if souls can be pulled from other places what are those places besides the Soul Cairn? Or is the Soul Cairn the only place?

I’m assuming that necromancer’s can’t pull a soul from a place like Sovrngarde; however, we do know it’s possible to summon spirits from there via the shout that allows us to call a couple to aid us in battle for a period of time.

Another thing I found interesting is that the soul used to reanimate a corpse/skeleton can be ANY soul - it doesn’t have to be the soul which originally inhabited the body being reanimated and it sounds like in most cases it’s not.

So you may take Narfi’s body and reanimate it with a filled black soul gem you found tucked away in a barrow and essentially be binding a centuries old Nordic woman’s soul to his corpse.

When your reanimated Narfi “dies” - that Nord woman’s soul then transfers over to the Soul Cairn for all eternity. Meanwhile Narfi’s soul is…who knows where.

Maybe he’s trapped in some soul gem tucked away in his killer’s knapsack or he passed on to wherever it is that “normal” souls go to (because Sovrngarde seems to be like Valhalla - reserved for Nordic heroes and those who fought and died bravely in battle).

Whoa! This answers my question and then some! Thank you very much for scratching that lore itch I had in the back of my head for a while now

[ShelLuser]

Maybe not fully related but... if you want to get deeper into necromancy I can recommend looking into the corpse preparation mod[www.nexusmods.com]. Warning: not for the faint of heart! ;)

It literally allows you to collect bodies (or parts therefor) and then start feeding souls to the Ideal masters in order to raise your own undead minions. Just be careful about all the heavy side effects like soul corruption.

Also... this mod doesn't seem to play well with Azura's star: it actually gets consumed. At least I think it's this mod.

[Fear2288]

Publicado originalmente por ShelLuser:

Maybe not fully related but... if you want to get deeper into necromancy I can recommend looking into the corpse preparation mod[www.nexusmods.com]. Warning: not for the faint of heart! ;)

It literally allows you to collect bodies (or parts therefor) and then start feeding souls to the Ideal masters in order to raise your own undead minions. Just be careful about all the heavy side effects like soul corruption.

Also... this mod doesn't seem to play well with Azura's star: it actually gets consumed. At least I think it's this mod.

I’ve always been curious about that mod, The Dark Arts, and Undeath.

I assume Corpse Prep and DA are not compatible with one another, but I wonder if either work with Undeath.

Also curious for anyone who’s actually tried these mods what your thoughts are.

I’ve heard that Undeath WAS good, but it’s a bit dated by mod-standards today and still has a number of bugs and gamebreakers that were never fully resolved/fixed. I think I also heard that the liche transformation mechanic can get a bit…problematic (getting stuck in liche form, not being able to attack while in liche form, crashes involving the model’s skeleton, etc).

Can anyone confirm the quality of Undeath and whether or not it’s worth playing now in 2024?

[ALV]

Publicado originalmente por Fear2288:

Publicado originalmente por ShelLuser:

Maybe not fully related but... if you want to get deeper into necromancy I can recommend looking into the corpse preparation mod[www.nexusmods.com]. Warning: not for the faint of heart! ;)

It literally allows you to collect bodies (or parts therefor) and then start feeding souls to the Ideal masters in order to raise your own undead minions. Just be careful about all the heavy side effects like soul corruption.

Also... this mod doesn't seem to play well with Azura's star: it actually gets consumed. At least I think it's this mod.

I’ve always been curious about that mod, The Dark Arts, and Undeath.

I assume Corpse Prep and DA are not compatible with one another, but I wonder if either work with Undeath.

Also curious for anyone who’s actually tried these mods what your thoughts are.

I’ve heard that Undeath WAS good, but it’s a bit dated by mod-standards today and still has a number of bugs and gamebreakers that were never fully resolved/fixed. I think I also heard that the liche transformation mechanic can get a bit…problematic (getting stuck in liche form, not being able to attack while in liche form, crashes involving the model’s skeleton, etc).

Can anyone confirm the quality of Undeath and whether or not it’s worth playing now in 2024?

I can confirm the quality of Undeath but you need Undeath remastered as well as 2 separate mod addons which are Undeath Classical Lichdom - The Ascension (Lite) and Undeath - Classical Lichdom as these two add a bunch of new QOL stuff like changing your skin to be an Ayleid lich (The Cause required), a dragon priest, or a boney lich as well as the ability to use all your spells (though you need to favorite them as you can't go into your spell menu). I haven't played with corpse prep but dark arts does indeed work with Undeath, though a little tidbit to know is that it causes a werid little bug with Ordinator if you use it where if you try to change your thralls equipment they might revert back to their default equipment.

[Fear2288]

I’ll have to give it a try on my next playthrough.

I actually had it in my mod list for years but never got around to playing it. I think I consistently forgot about it because the quest start never triggered when it was supposed to, and then there was something about starting it by going to Markarth and reading a note in the inn…but I hardly ever go to Markarth (the MQ never takes you there, nor does the CW, DLC quests, or the questlines for the Companions and Mage’s College - not counting random radiant quests).

I eventually needed some more space in my list and just removed it.

I’m currently playing an upstanding, Stendarr worshipping, Legion veteran, Imperial knight character so I was leaning towards my next one either being a Mannimarco wannabe Necromancer or a Molag Bal loving vampire.

[ALV]

Publicado originalmente por Fear2288:

I’ll have to give it a try on my next playthrough.

I actually had it in my mod list for years but never got around to playing it. I think I consistently forgot about it because the quest start never triggered when it was supposed to, and then there was something about starting it by going to Markarth and reading a note in the inn…but I hardly ever go to Markarth (the MQ never takes you there, nor does the CW, DLC quests, or the questlines for the Companions and Mage’s College - not counting random radiant quests).

I eventually needed some more space in my list and just removed it.

I’m currently playing an upstanding, Stendarr worshipping, Legion veteran, Imperial knight character so I was leaning towards my next one either being a Mannimarco wannabe Necromancer or a Molag Bal loving vampire.

Well with the 3 Undeath mods it does the whole note in the Markarth inn thing but I kinda like it as then you can choose when you want to start it. I played the original Undeath mod and in that one the quest automatically starts at around lvl 30 so I use that as a basis to when I should start the remastered Undeath mod.

[abcd]

it's a residual imprint left in the body by the soul. the neurons and associations it formed over time, and which are still mostly what the body uses to move.

many of the early necromantic obelisks you can see in falmer ruins seem designed to imprint souls on the area, similar to a body's neurons and associations shaping the soul. or a phylactery. like words written on a stone describing an entity that is willed into being by the inscriptions.

like a telestic animate or a golem.

necromancy does the same thing, but fills the body's empty space with magic generated from the caster's essence and body. the dead body acting as a kind of golem body or mold for the magic.

the main issue with the elderscroll's cosmology is that golems and souls are extremely similar. none of the entities you see are genuinely sentient, in lore terms. you could replace them with a golem and nobody would know. or turn into a soul and remain the same, like mannimarco or the daedra. you'd wind up turned into a plaything for the Firmament anyway.

anyway all the flags are literally stored on the body, so there is no afterlife. and souls are just 'pieces' of things basically. like a inverse imprint of the kind of magic you'd fill the body with. a soul is like a taproot the body leaves behind, in terms of information and magic transparency. I am pretty sure there are some texts about magic-information transparency in the series as well.

one way to look at a soul gem is a data disk you made to hold the information of the soul at the time of death, when its info-state is finalized. and necromantic animation is like inserting a livecode virus of yourself into the empty shell. like if mannimarco took a worm, one of the worms that make him up, and put it inside a body, and it grew into the body as a perfect copy of him he could control.

is that not mannimarco, same as it is yourself that you put in those corpses?

similarly, are the daedra not simply a dwemer puzzle box themselves? a conceptual space molded into will and action by its shape. an imprint on reality. a warp in the weald.

[EricHVela]

I take the simple approach as mentioned earlier by the OP: The will of the caster is manipulating a soul-less body like a puppet.

As for the dark soul gems, we've seen the inside of one that was dedicated to Molag Bal in ESO. We've seen the insides of a different, special one dedicated to Azura that was corrupted to become a dark soul gem.

I think what's inside a person-inhabited soul gem depends on whose will is at play, and they're not the same on the inside.

[Silamon]

Publicado originalmente por EricHVela:

I take the simple approach as mentioned earlier by the OP: The will of the caster is manipulating a soul-less body like a puppet.

As for the dark soul gems, we've seen the inside of one that was dedicated to Molag Bal in ESO. We've seen the insides of a different, special one dedicated to Azura that was corrupted to become a dark soul gem.

I think what's inside a person-inhabited soul gem depends on whose will is at play, and they're not the same on the inside.

Now that's interesting. I've never had much desire to play ESO, and that's the first thing that has tempted me to try it.

[ALV]

Publicado originalmente por Fear2288:

I’ll have to give it a try on my next playthrough.

I actually had it in my mod list for years but never got around to playing it. I think I consistently forgot about it because the quest start never triggered when it was supposed to, and then there was something about starting it by going to Markarth and reading a note in the inn…but I hardly ever go to Markarth (the MQ never takes you there, nor does the CW, DLC quests, or the questlines for the Companions and Mage’s College - not counting random radiant quests).

I eventually needed some more space in my list and just removed it.

I’m currently playing an upstanding, Stendarr worshipping, Legion veteran, Imperial knight character so I was leaning towards my next one either being a Mannimarco wannabe Necromancer or a Molag Bal loving vampire.

Oh yeah also it might be best if you download Dragon Priest Fix - Behaviour Overhaul as for some reason undeath screws with the Dragon Priest AI causing them to not attack you for the most part

[Fear2288]

Publicado originalmente por ALV:

Publicado originalmente por Fear2288:

I’ll have to give it a try on my next playthrough.

I actually had it in my mod list for years but never got around to playing it. I think I consistently forgot about it because the quest start never triggered when it was supposed to, and then there was something about starting it by going to Markarth and reading a note in the inn…but I hardly ever go to Markarth (the MQ never takes you there, nor does the CW, DLC quests, or the questlines for the Companions and Mage’s College - not counting random radiant quests).

I eventually needed some more space in my list and just removed it.

I’m currently playing an upstanding, Stendarr worshipping, Legion veteran, Imperial knight character so I was leaning towards my next one either being a Mannimarco wannabe Necromancer or a Molag Bal loving vampire.

Oh yeah also it might be best if you download Dragon Priest Fix - Behaviour Overhaul as for some reason undeath screws with the Dragon Priest AI causing them to not attack you for the most part

I’ve been having that issue even without Undeath.

I’m wondering if it’s an actual bug that if you begin attacking a Dragon Priest before they fully complete their “emerge from crypt” animation, it causes them to not attack you - instead they just kinda float around.

I’ve tested it in my game a number of times. If I don’t attack them and let them fully emerge and get settled - they’ll attack and behave as normal.

If I hit them before they get settled, they’ll float around and won’t actually attack me.

Its worked like this every time I’ve tried it.

I’m using no mods that touch Dragon Priests with the exception of Xavbio’s retexture.

[ALV]

Publicado originalmente por Fear2288:

Publicado originalmente por ALV:

Oh yeah also it might be best if you download Dragon Priest Fix - Behaviour Overhaul as for some reason undeath screws with the Dragon Priest AI causing them to not attack you for the most part

I’ve been having that issue even without Undeath.

I’m wondering if it’s an actual bug that if you begin attacking a Dragon Priest before they fully complete their “emerge from crypt” animation, it causes them to not attack you - instead they just kinda float around.

I’ve tested it in my game a number of times. If I don’t attack them and let them fully emerge and get settled - they’ll attack and behave as normal.

If I hit them before they get settled, they’ll float around and won’t actually attack me.

Its worked like this every time I’ve tried it.

I’m using no mods that touch Dragon Priests with the exception of Xavbio’s retexture.

Ohhh ok that makes a lotta sense now as I tend to like to get as much dmg in as possible before they awake so Imma try let them fully wake up then see if they fight back