Advisory Regarding Using Wrye Bash To Make A Bashed Patch

[smr1957]

IMPORTANT NOTE:
The issue is not with Wrye Bash as a mod manager. The issue is solely confined to it being used to create a Bashed Patch (or, related to that, to merge anything - for which it never should be used anyway - only xEdit should be used to merge plugins, using the appropriate Merge Plugins script - http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/37981/? , which is what I use or the standalone Merge Plugins by Mator - http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/69905/? ).

Wrye Bash Versions 307 and 308 have been determined to be faulty when used to make a Bashed Patch. If you are lucky enough to have version 306 from Nexus's SSE site, use that, as that still functions properly (the version 306 on Gitrhub does NOT work for SSE) in the creation of a Bashed Patch (though it still, also, needs to be checked in xEDit). DO NOT USE WRYE BASH v.307 or 308 WITHOUT CHECKING THE RESULTS IN xEDIT!!! They will exclude records from the patch that should be included, and items represented by those records will not appear in your game!

I downloaded and ran WB version 308, and all I can say is that it is, in the way it works, it will more than likely bork things in your game. Oh, maybe if you are only running 50 to 100 mods, without too many different conflicts among the leveled lists or containers, it might be good, but for anything larger, the number of mistakes are just so great, that you are better off just making the patches yourself - and the same applies for version 307, which was worse than version 306 - which actually did a fairly decent job of handling leveled list and containers.

I ran 307 and 308, and where, in the past, with version 306, I would have maybe only 20 - 30% of items left out, in version 307 and 308, for containers, there was an almost literally 100% error rate - every record that should have been forwarded was not - in addition to it including records that did not need to be forwarded to the Bashed Patch because there was nothing overwriting them. And for the leveled list, it was only slightly better - a 40 to 50% error rate, and again, forwarding things that did not need to be forwarded because the records were not being overwritten, while in 306, it was only 20 to 30%.

I can only say, that, even if you are someone with the smallest of builds (because, even then it still excludes records when they should be included), Wrye Bash is no longer a tool that can or should be recommended. Not if you want to make a Bashed Patch, and not if you want any items added by mods to appear in your game - because it simply does not work.

And here are just some examples - but they speak volumes, and are more than enough:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461827239
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461828750
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461831019
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461831700
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461833935
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461836159
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461838668
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461841097
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461843494

Now these are only 5 examples (2 of the 7 pictures are actually top and bottom halves of the screen), and you can see how everything that was supposed to be carried forward, was not. Now, with just these few records, missing all these items, extrapolate that forward and you have 100s of items that will NOT appear in the game - because Wrye Bash does forward any of the records it is supposed to. And, if you have a larger build, the number of items not appearing can reach even greater numbers of items not appearing.

Now that is for containers - 100% failure (or near enough) to forward the records it is supposed to. For the leveled list items, it does a slightly better job - it only fails to forward maybe 40 to 50% of what it should.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people just run WB to make the patch, and take it on faith that it is doing what it should, but never check to see if it actually has - and that also goes for many other tools which are used and which most take on faith to be doing what they should - because it is accepted that the tools will do what they are supposed to do. It is only when one really looks at the results (which, the majority do not) that the errors become apparent. More often than not, if the person has not checked, they will not notice - not notice that this item or that is not showing up, until, maybe, something triggers a thought after some while of playing, and they wonder, "Hey, I thought that I had a mod that added such and such to the game. How come I never see it?"

Basically, make a Bashed Patch, then apply filter for conflicts, and then patch as you normally would, but only do this for the Categories of Container and Leveled List.

Carry forward any conflict losers in that those categories to the last shown mod - if you get the message about needing to add as a Master, then say no (this avoids too many linkages between mods or potential issues if you install a mod later), and instead use the Copy as Override into option and add it to the Bashed Patch. Do this in STRICT order of your plugins, first to last, to ensure that the masters are all in order in the file header (not that items out order will adversely effect the game, but heck, you may as well keep things a orderly as possible!).

Once done, close - making sure that the backup box is checked, just in case.

And then check it again, to make sure you got everything!

A little anecdote. For the longest time, I wondered why I never saw the meat pie in the game - even though the Unofficial Patch added it. Then I discovered that WB was not forwarding that record (version 306 corrected this, and was extremely good for the vast majority of tasks required of it). Once I saw this and forwarded the record, it appeared in the game.

That was just one item - imagine how much more goes unseen by the average gamer when they add mods?

[smr1957]

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST! I WILL NOT RESPOND TO QUESTIONS THAT ASK FOR INFORMATION THAT IS CONTAINED IN IT!

Also, For some generalized instructuions on how to use xEdit to edit records, see:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/154643795211522292/?tscn=1619181961#c3128289322270199682

While this is not specific to to editing for Containers and Leveled list, it should give a rough idea of how to go about it.

The link included in the quoted section there for GamerPoets tutorial on using xEdit is particularly useful.

[smr1957]

Part of the problem lies with me. I have always noticed when editing in xEdit that things were not being included, but because I did my editing as I modded, I did not see the whole picture. It was just with this last build where I held off making a Bashed Patch until just now, when almost all my plugins have been added (over 1500 of them, merged down to 220), that I saw the issue in its entirety. I should have taken the time to further investigate the issue when I first saw things missing a couple of years ago - even if I did always tell people they should check their Bashed Patch to ensure that all was as it should be.

[Vlad 254]

Great post as usual Steve, just realized I posted this on the wrong thread

rough morning. woke up almost 2 hours ago and still not awake

anyway, linking this to my guide.

[smr1957]

Originally posted by Vlad 254:

Great post as usual Steve, just realized I posted this on the wrong thread

rough morning. woke up almost 2 hours ago and still not awake :EZ_Demon2:

anyway, linking this to my guide.

Thanks, Vlad! It's a never ending task to keep current with things in the game.

[SailaNamai]

Thank you.
You are probably the best person i know to ask this. In theory couldn't this be handled by a xedit script rendering WB completely obsolete?

[Crystal Sharrd]

You could always get the beta 309 build from the official Discord server. Personally, I never completely rely on Wrye Bash. I use Wrye Bash as a foundation before finetuning with xEdit. Even moreso for Fallout: New Vegas and Fallout 4, which Wrye Bash is not the nest in.

[Tiberius]

I dont notice this problem on mine (granted i only use 250esp), but hopefully they'll sort this problem soon

[Avrie]

Great information SMR, Hopefully it won't get further derailed. We've been so used to verifying the bash manually for so long it's hard to even notice how far down it's slid.

The other side of the argument is that bash tags need to be edited and added by the authors but that feels like an evasion of the issue. With no one actively updating the manager to keep it current, it might be time to think about an xEdit script that does the bash directly as a stand alone product and simply allow WB to wallow in Oblivion. It seems that's all Utumno seems to be interested in.

[smr1957]

Originally posted by Avrie:

Great information SMR, Hopefully it won't get further derailed. We've been so used to verifying the bash manually for so long it's hard to even notice how far down it's slid.

The other side of the argument is that bash tags need to be edited and added by the authors but that feels like an evasion of the issue. With no one actively updating the manager to keep it current, it might be time to think about an xEdit script that does the bash directly as a stand alone product and simply allow WB to wallow in Oblivion. It seems that's all Utumno seems to be interested in.

Something along the lines of how the xEdit merge plugin script works, would be useful, if possible - just merging the Container and Leveled Lists, though. I should look into modifying that script to see if I can make it apply to just those two categories.

Or, perhaps, see if Mator would be interested in doing so - which is an even better idea.

[fauxpas]

.