Advice on Tyranids

[badassunicorn]

Hi there. Somewhat new to the game. Started as Tyranids. Found they suck. Played a bit Necrons. Looks like fun. Played Astra Militarum b/c they're also rated as "hard" as a faction. Well, won my first game. They performed nice.

Got back to my 2nd Tyranid Start. They still suck. And that's on easy/medium normal map/default number of players.

I read about 'swarming the enemy'. With what exactly? Thermagants die in panic if swarm mum doesn't hold their hand - or claws, whatever - every few turns.
So do most of the other units. Gargoyles do some decent damage against neutrals and stuff, as do Warriors. But one lonely Space Marine can frag them easily and that's with his hands cuffed and having a coffee break inbetween.

Building Alphas and/or Tervigon? At what cost, how many and how am I supposed to pay for that?
Spawning Termostats is nice as a trait, but they die if someone looks at them funny.
(Ok, I can devour them as biomass. But building only Warriors can't be a solution.)
Like all my units seem to do. Because: Overwatch. Do Tyranids even have a grab of that concept?
My warrior just stood on a forest tile, a Catachan Devil appeared and slapped him for a whopping 8HP and my superduper early game melee unit did - nothing.
The only ones overwatching anything are those thermomats - did I already complain about them being very squishy?

Why is there even a overwatch symbol in the UI? They never get the first shot.
Yesterday I stepped into some Marines. 2 Warriors, 2 Gargoyles against 2 Marines and one Assault. My units dropped nearly dead after the overwatch salvos and that was it. Army slaughtered. Everyone and his dog appears to have at least two tiles attack range early game, but not me.

Same with the cities. This is the faction you're supposed to play somewhat 'wide', isn't it?
Well - I can't. Either I have to turtle up to not getting slaughterd by my enemies. Which means I don't get many bonus from special tiles. Or I build an early second city, which tanks my economy.

Every zergling would laugh at that 'swarm', for Overmind's sake.
I really tried but I can't figure out what Tyranids are supposed to be good at.

[Jey]

Have you tried looking at Adozu's guide?

While it doesn't have the most up-to-date strats, it's still a very good primer for tyranids beginners.

[just.dont.do.it]

Gladius tyranids are nearly the opposite of "swarm". Tau is the only swarm faction in Gladius and only due to summonable drones.

You really shouldn't expect to play "tall" or "wide" here, in fact, most factions play very much the same as the economy goes. Some are simply limited to "tall" (SM, SoB to a lesser extent), but among all the rest it's CSM that's the "widest" faction and only because they can start their second city very early and have easy access to colonizers. Rest plays roughly the same. For Tyranids, you have easy resources (just two, in fact) but you build your economy pretty much like others do.

[Stardustfire]

Alpha and Tervigon are both legit, Alpha is a dmg powerhouse and Tervigon is your main healer, together with being a big Eco Exploit, thnx to the combi of free gants and the devour mechanic of Tyranid Citys. you need a few more buildings that produce Influence than other Races do, because you need it for most things and cant generate it by other means, but thats it.

if you need an early powerhouse beneth an Alpha, Carnifex is the way to go. before they implemented the useless swarmcyst, carnifex was the start unit for monstrous production, now you need to research it first, but he brings all to the table you need to survive early on if you get pressed in that game stage.
Tyranid Warriors are there because they are synaps units, not because they are superhuman fighters. if you have the DLC for them, Hiveguards are very solid early research beeline goal as well.

for the citys, yeah you need a few more than other races, but you get the means to do so by research.
when a early second city tanks you Eco as Tyranid than something is wrong, but not with the Race, more like with the build strategie.

[Noodlesocks]

I still haven't found a good way to play Tyranids. I still think a lot of their units cost too much upkeep for what you get out of them.

That being said, I find hormagaunts much more effective than termagaunts. Alpha can be pretty tanky with their promotions and backed by the healing power of a tervigon. Hive Tyrant will help with loyalty/economy when you can afford them.

Early expansion is useful. Get second city as soon as possible as with any faction and get third down as soon as is viable. Personally I like to dedicate my cities to a task. First city usually to unit production. Second city I'll often dedicate to influence production and use Malanthropes to consume tiles to supplement biomass income. Third city I'll dedicate to biomass. When first city unit production is saturated I'll switch that to resources and start unit production in another city so I'll have two unit build queues available.

Though I still haven't found a really efficient way to play them. They still feel weak and costly compared to when I play as any other faction.

[Maestro Rugosa]

I love the Nids, but it took me a few runs to concoct a strategy that worked for me.

Note that I only ever play vs the AI and never PvP. Also, the Tyranids are the most vulnerable faction to bad starting location. All other factions can pretty much adjust their long term plans based on terrain. But if the Nids start in an area without biomass and can't find any good terrain nearby, I think they're pretty doomed.

They require tons of influence and food. Unlike all the other factions, the Nids gain resources when their city simply clears a hex. This is a major source of food. So you want to only build your cities in food-rich areas. Your second city might never even construct a building, but only ever clear hex after hex to provide you with 30 food per turn.

They gain influence with loads of influence buildings. You'll be constructing influence buildings the whole game.

Build their hero building right away and get a Tervigon going. With your concentration on influence buildings, you can soon afford a second Tervigon.

These two heroes will provide you with the swarm of zerglings you're looking for: an endless host of free termigants. At first, mainly use the termigants to speed construction of your early buildings. But soon, your chittering mob of weaklings becomes substantial enough to handle themselves... and with the Tervigons helping out by buffing the 'gants, you can soon clear most neutrals.

Note that EVERYBODY loves destroying termigants since they're pretty squishy. So don't get too attached to them. But even if they're blasted down to 1 hp, they're still useful since you can run them home and eat 'em up to help speed up city or unit production.

You'll obviously need an aedenanthropum (sp?) for a handful of malenthropes, first to build your second (& eventually a third city), but also because they provide you with passive science when they watch combats. Also, the malenthropes eat up terrain and give you food... but that also requires influence.

I never construct the infantry building, but instead head for the Trygons up the tech tree to be my heavy hitters. In addition to being incredible killers and nearly indestructible until late game, the Trygons build your Brood Hives (aka, Nydus Canals in Starcraft). These allow the Nids to be the most mobile faction in Gladius. Your first Trygon builds a Brood Hive near your city, and five turns later builds a second brood hive closer to the front. Later Trygons pop out and jump to the front in one turn. At the same time, your damaged termigants zoom home to speed production of buildings or more Trygons.

This is the core concept: use termigants for fodder until you can spam Trygons. Obviously, you'll also want to build the amazing Hive Tyrant for her loyalty boost and combat power, and eventually get Hive Crones in the air late game.

[Stardustfire]

maestro you got it the wrong way around, nids are the least prone to get kicked in the back by enviroment for citys, because they dont get ANY biom boni/mali at all, exept for reseach, the only thing that is bad for them are rocks, because they dont profit from them like every other race do, they only cost a build spot in a city with less tiles than any others race (i ignore the sisters satelites here, thats only blown up FoRs)
so as long you dont play with scarce outposts nids are good to go, because they get influence boni from every outpost type and biomass boni from most of them.
they also dont get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up so hard by cliffs or waterbodys because with there smaller citys they can easyer build around that without loosing tiles.

[Maestro Rugosa]

I'm not talking about % bonuses at all.

I'm only talking about the food the generate by clearing hexes. If you generate food from clearing hexes and malanthropes, you don't have to build farms at all.

[Stardustfire]

well thats something i ever ignore, i dont snack with the malanthropes, no need for that influence waste ability, enove mass income with Tervi-Cityeat combi and more benefit than with the malantrophs.

[Grotzel]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

(i ignore the sisters satelites here, thats only blown up FoRs)

Bit off topic ... but I can't really let that bit of blasphemy slide. Since when can Fortresses of Redemption build units? ;)
The minor Sister cities might not be all that impressive ... but they are still far superior to the puny fortresses of Space Marines.

[badassunicorn]

Originally posted by Jey:

Have you tried looking at Adozu's guide?

While it doesn't have the most up-to-date strats, it's still a very good primer for tyranids beginners.

Yep, I did. I tried to follow the suggestions in there. But the game won't let me. Enemy appears, I am not prepared, I die.

Perhaps my assumptions for a good starting position are wrong? I see that biomass and influence are the Tyranids' main resources, with influence becoming increasingly valuable to the mid-game. Am I mistaken?

[badassunicorn]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

Alpha and Tervigon are both legit, Alpha is a dmg powerhouse and Tervigon is your main healer, together with being a big Eco Exploit, thnx to the combi of free gants and the devour mechanic of Tyranid Citys. you need a few more buildings that produce Influence than other Races do, because you need it for most things and cant generate it by other means, but thats it.
if you need an early powerhouse beneth an Alpha, Carnifex is the way to go.

I conclude I have to turtle somewhat for doing so? I'm struggling with the initial cost of Tervigon/Alpha build. It feels like ages until I get them ready.
Btw: I'm playing normal speed.
In ye olde Civ IV I used to be on epic speed on large/huge maps, so I'm more of the 'I need some time for buildup'-gamer (yes, I'm an oldtimer :-)

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

if you have the DLC for them, Hiveguards are very solid early research beeline goal as well.

I have a "fork save" with exactly this decision. Guess I should add Carnifexes to the mix. Marines to the North, Ork to the southeast. I will give it a try. Because I really like theses non-Zerg as a species design.

when a early second city tanks you Eco as Tyranid than something is wrong, but not with the Race, more like with the build strategie.

Well, perhaps I'm too early? Assume a normal map/normal speed/default or default +1 players map and a decent starting postition.
What is the timeframe for a 2nd city?

[badassunicorn]

Originally posted by Noodlesocks:

I still haven't found a good way to play Tyranids. I still think a lot of their units cost too much upkeep for what you get out of them.

Didn't mention that, but: yes. Compared with the other faction so far most units semm a bit pricy?

Originally posted by Noodlesocks:

Hive Tyrant will help with loyalty/economy when you can afford them.

I considered building one of these for bolstering the loyalty. 2nd city in time and such...

Originally posted by Noodlesocks:

Early expansion is useful. Get second city as soon as possible as with any faction and get third down as soon as is viable.

In the game with the Astra Militarum/Guard i never built that 3rd city. Wasn't necessary. I was a bit short on energy, but with the edict could boost the output in the late game. Sororitas, Marines and Necrons went down fast after the long struggle against the Orkz ^^

[quoteNoodlesocks;6171701036705552312]]
Personally I like to dedicate my cities to a task. First city usually to unit production.[/quote]

Did that with Astra Militarum. First was a production city. Second was research. Because there are two ways to kill stuff: 1. Have more stuff 2. Have better stuff

[badassunicorn]

Originally posted by Maestro Rugosa:

They gain influence with loads of influence buildings. You'll be constructing influence buildings the whole game.

Well, I did get that aspect right then, I guess ^^

Originally posted by Maestro Rugosa:

I never construct the infantry building, but instead head for the Trygons up the tech tree to be my heavy hitters.

But I need to build at least some infantry to scout the vicinity/trying to level the units a bit/grabbing a few extra tiles?

[badassunicorn]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

well thats something i ever ignore, i dont snack with the malanthropes, no need for that influence waste ability, enove mass income with Tervi-Cityeat combi and more benefit than with the malantrophs.

I'm struggling with that bit, too. I mean strip-eating the planet is nice, but the cost/value-ratio seems a bit off?
(at least until I can research that tech later on whose name I totally not remember)

[Stardustfire]

my goto is tervi (and buying him a icone that gives influence each turn, so he pays that cost himself and gives some out on top, selling unneeded items from Vaults shoud help funding that) and than pump out gants with him that rigth away get eaten by the town for faster building building and Biomass or for faster unit building and biomass, depends on what townbuilding you use the eating ability with. the tech for making the towns eating ability cheaper helps with that.
point of attention is that you already must produce something or you dont get the production points. seems like the devs have real problems with right forward programming logic (see: selfdestructing Warboss when leveling up HP Boost level 3 as another reference for that problems.... )