SoB Holy Sites - is research scaling with turn number?

[Sir Travelot]

Hi - I've only played a couple of games with SoB so far, so this could just be random variation and everything is fine but: the research reward for exploring Holy Sites doesn't seem to be effected by turn number? For example, on turn <50, I might get 45 research for exploring a site, and on turn >150 I might get 35. Is there a sneaky, cheeky lil' ol' bug hiding here?

[FOTUS (Felon of the U.S)]

How do you explore the holy sites?

[Wandering Mania]

To answer the OP's question:
No, it's not. It's always around about 50 research per site.

Originally posted by Oliver Twist:

How do you explore the holy sites?

Build one of the Hospitlers and just walk them over the glowing site.

Overall though, I would say save your money unless you really like the SoB; Or at least wait until it's on sale. Because I personally think they where done in a very lazy manner. For the following reasons:

- They can not lose moral no matter what.
- There's no 'Faith' mechanic that acts like the Ork's 'Whaaah'.
- The 'Holy Sites' are just a waste of time.
- They have no 'additional' units added by the other DLCs (Reinforcement/Specialist/Fortification/Assault packs)
- The Exorcist Tanks have less range than any other factions artillery.
- And some units still sometimes suffer from the old LoS (Line of Sight) bug. Where basically they can be right next to an enemy unit, but yet can't see it, or attack it.

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

To answer the OP's question:
No, it's not. It's always around about 50 research per site.

Originally posted by Oliver Twist:

How do you explore the holy sites?

Build one of the Hospitlers and just walk them over the glowing site.

Overall though, I would say save your money unless you really like the SoB; Or at least wait until it's on sale. Because I personally think they where done in a very lazy manner. For the following reasons:

- They can not lose moral no matter what.
- There's no 'Faith' mechanic that acts like the Ork's 'Whaaah'.
- The 'Holy Sites' are just a waste of time.
- They have no 'additional' units added by the other DLCs (Reinforcement/Specialist/Fortification/Assault packs)
- The Exorcist Tanks have less range than any other factions artillery.
- And some units still sometimes suffer from the old LoS (Line of Sight) bug. Where basically they can be right next to an enemy unit, but yet can't see it, or attack it.

Some really bad criticism there...

For one, no faction gets units from prior unit packs, this is not a reason to bash SoB DLC. Besides, they have plenty of units on their own, it is not like they have a lesser number. I feel that their roster is complete, besides a higher tier transport and/or a defensive structure.

Holy sites are not meant to be a cheat code, but just a reward for exploration. SoB have lower city radius for additional cities, so they need some benefits to compensate.

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Some really bad criticism there...

That's your opinion. But my criticisms are mine.

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

For one, no faction gets units from prior unit packs, this is not a reason to bash SoB DLC.

Chaos, Tyrinids and Tau did. (I don't know about the Eldar as I haven't seen anything about them)

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Besides, they have plenty of units on their own, it is not like they have a lesser number. I feel that their roster is complete, besides a higher tier transport and/or a defensive structure.

Hence why the unit packs should have had extra units like the other races had.

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Holy sites are not meant to be a cheat code, but just a reward for exploration. SoB have lower city radius for additional cities, so they need some benefits to compensate.

I never said they where. I only said that they where a waste of time. Both for the player, and the developers in making them at all. The aforementioned 'Faith mechanic' would have been a much better 'benefit'; As well as more fitting of the faction.

[Grotzel]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

That's your opinion. But my criticisms are mine.
(...)
Chaos, Tyrinids and Tau did.

But you ARE wrong - at least regarding that. New factions automatically get a larger roster to make up for the dlcs released so far. Unit packs do not get retroactively upgraded when a new faction is released. Which is, I guess, why newer unit packs get more expensive than older, smaller, ones.
Check the description of older unit packs and I guarantee you that you will find no mention of any units that were later added. For instance the first one 'Reinforcement Pack' does NOT list any Mechanicus, Chaos, Tau or Tyranid units (the hybrids are merely neutrals).

As for the rest of your complaints - I sadly don't have the SoB DLC yet, but I'm sceptical that it is as flawed as you describe. It may well be that it would have benefitted from a more fleshed out faith mechanism - but from what I've read it seems to have been concentrated into Act's of Faith - tied to the morale of the units - and the Sacred Rites. I'm not sure if faith as an actual resource like in Dawn of War would really work that much better here. The Ork's Waaagh, for example, is not really a seperate resource at all. It's basically a flashier version of saying: Look 'ere, we 'ave lots of influence and that makes us strong!

Now if the Sisters morale really can't be broken as you claim, that would render the Acts of Faith completey pointless - and likely bugged. Can't judge that, though.

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by Grotzel:

Now if the Sisters morale really can't be broken as you claim, that would render the Acts of Faith completey pointless - and likely bugged. Can't judge that, though.

And that's exactly what I saw. I played an entire game with them; And not once, not a single time, did any of my units lose any morale. They are better at 'Space Marineing' than the Space Marines; As even the "Unbreakable" Space Marines in this game can break. The SoB though, are truly unbreakable.

And the 'Acts of Faith' themselves are quite pointless. +1 accuracy for a single attack then a 6 turn cool down here, +1AP and +1 damage for a single attack with the same 6 turn cool down there; It's pretty pointless.

But yes, the stronger the SoB's faith, the stronger and more powerful they become. It's why some people call them the 'Imperial Orks'; They may not have the 'swarm mechanics' like them, because that's what the Imp Guard is good at, but that 'Holy war(or Whaaah)' is what they have.

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Some really bad criticism there...

That's your opinion. But my criticisms are mine.

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

For one, no faction gets units from prior unit packs, this is not a reason to bash SoB DLC.

Chaos, Tyrinids and Tau did. (I don't know about the Eldar as I haven't seen anything about them)

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Besides, they have plenty of units on their own, it is not like they have a lesser number. I feel that their roster is complete, besides a higher tier transport and/or a defensive structure.

Hence why the unit packs should have had extra units like the other races had.

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Holy sites are not meant to be a cheat code, but just a reward for exploration. SoB have lower city radius for additional cities, so they need some benefits to compensate.

I never said they where. I only said that they where a waste of time. Both for the player, and the developers in making them at all. The aforementioned 'Faith mechanic' would have been a much better 'benefit'; As well as more fitting of the faction.

Of course it is my opinion. And your criticism of the DLC, is just that, your opinion.... And an opinion that is also false on actual facts.

1) Sisters units can lose morale. That is why there exists an actual achievement for beating the game on impossible without a unit breaking morale.... So, you got your facts wrong here

2) You call the DLC a lazy effort, then you criticize them for not copy-pasting the code from the Orks' WAAAAGH and just changing the label to "faith"....

3) You call the Holy Sites a waste of time, while there are a unique mechanic to the faction that encourages them to expand early, further solidifying their gameplay character as a wide faction

4) In Gladius, only unit packs released after a faction was released, contained units for it. You got your facts wrong, in your LAZY attempt at being negative about the DLC. You claim the DLC was "lazy", an actual product people made, yet you are so lazy you can't even be bothered to get your facts straight, and you double down on insisting, even though you are wrong on this....

5) The Excorsist tank, has a range of 3, which is the same as most faction artillery. Ony the Basilisk has more....

Basically, you are attacking the DLC for no reason by distorting the facts about it. Your criticism is beyond bad. You are allowed to have an opinion, you are allowed to not liking it, but i am allowed to criticize your own opinion when you are writting falsehoods.

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

1) Sisters units can lose morale. That is why there exists an actual achievement for beating the game on impossible without a unit breaking morale.... So, you got your facts wrong here

So that's why I had units that where at 'deaths door' and still completely full on moral? The reason: 'Martyr's Spirit'. The SoB are unbreakable because they gain moral when they take losses.
"Sisters! We must go out in flames! If we cannot win the day, we must go out as martyrs!"
~ Cannoness from 'WH40k: Dawn of War: Soulstorm'

Now weather that's a bug or not, I don't know. But it sure seems that it's intentional, and why they are unbreakable in this game.

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

2) You call the DLC a lazy effort, then you criticize them for not copy-pasting the code from the Orks' WAAAAGH and just changing the label to "faith"....

Why not? They copy/pasted the Space Marine's 'Requisition' mechanic. Like it or not, a lot of the Imperial factions have taken bits and pieces from the Orks. Not one of them is fully 'unique'. It's just how 40k was made.

[tremere110]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

So that's why I had units that where at 'deaths door' and still completely full on moral? The reason: 'Martyr's Spirit'. The SoB are unbreakable because they gain moral when they take losses.
"Sisters! We must go out in flames! If we cannot win the day, we must go out as martyrs!"
~ Cannoness from 'WH40k: Dawn of War: Soulstorm'

Now weather that's a bug or not, I don't know. But it sure seems that it's intentional, and why they are unbreakable in this game.

They don't gain morale when taking losses. They get a buff that prevents them from losing further morale. Eldar banshees can break sister morale very easily. Fighting other sisters backed by a canoness will also break your morale. The AI is terrible at using tactics to break morale - so you're probably not gonna see it often against it.

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by tremere110:

They don't gain morale when taking losses. They get a buff that prevents them from losing further morale. Eldar banshees can break sister morale very easily. Fighting other sisters backed by a canoness will also break your morale. The AI is terrible at using tactics to break morale - so you're probably not gonna see it often against it.

I don't know. I've seen the AI break the Space Marines, the Necrons, and of course the Imp Guard, the Orks, and the Tau, pretty easily.

If the SoB are so difficult to break, making them even more so than the 'Unbreakable Space Marines', then there only leaves the conclusion that I have come to.

[Jey]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

- They can not lose moral no matter what.

Dunno what version you play, but keep your bugged mods out of the consideration of the DLC.

- There's no 'Faith' mechanic that acts like the Ork's 'Whaaah'.

Which is awesome. No one wants a stupid copy-paste of another faction.

- The 'Holy Sites' are just a waste of time.

L2P

- They have no 'additional' units added by the other DLCs (Reinforcement/Specialist/Fortification/Assault packs)

Like literally every faction added by a DLC in Gladius?

Chaos, Tyrinids and Tau did. (I don't know about the Eldar as I haven't seen anything about them)

You're wrong, and it's easily checkable on Steam :/.

- The Exorcist Tanks have less range than any other factions artillery.

Only 3 units have a range above 3.
The Gauss Pylon, The Aquila Macro Cannon and the Basilisk.
Two of them being T10 unit.

Play on vanilla before commenting vanilla, please.

- And some units still sometimes suffer from the old LoS (Line of Sight) bug. Where basically they can be right next to an enemy unit, but yet can't see it, or attack it.

Play on vanilla, please.
There's no "LoS bug".

And the 'Acts of Faith' themselves are quite pointless

L2P

why I had units that where at 'deaths door' and still completely full on moral?

Because you clearly don't understand how morale works.

The reason: 'Martyr's Spirit'. The SoB are unbreakable because they gain moral when they take losses.

Learn to read.

Why not? They copy/pasted the Space Marine's 'Requisition' mechanic.

Why didn't you complain about the T'au copy-pasting the food mechanic of the Astra Militarum?

If the SoB are so difficult to break

They aren't.
To have an unit difficult to break you need fearless (or equivalent) + 12 morale. Anything else is irrelevant.

[Grotzel]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

If the SoB are so difficult to break, making them even more so than the 'Unbreakable Space Marines', then there only leaves the conclusion that I have come to.

No, it does not. You stated that the Sisters appear to be utterly immune to moral damage. That is something quite different. It might have been due to a bug, luck or you not paying close enough attention. Hard to judge. Tremere110 seems to have experienced Sisters losing morale.

Perhaps the battles simply went too well for you. It really depends on the situation. Losing a squad of guardsmen sometimes hardly seems to bother anyone. I'm guessing you didn't try to lose super units or heroes?

[Corseth]

Their morale trait is not better than that of Marines. When a sisters of battle unit dies, nearby (range 1) sisters of battle units get a 17% reduction to moral loss. It's 17% that only activates after a unit dies, and only buffs to range 1. Space Marines have an always-on 33% reduction. The sisters also have 10 starting morale points on their basic infantry, vs 8 for marines. That's it, there's no special 'no moral loss' or unbreakable going on. 17% reduction AFTER a unit dies, and 2 more points of base morale, vs 33% always-active reduction.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

- They can not lose moral no matter what.

Absolutely incorrect. SoB can lose Morale very quickly; however, they reduce that morale loss by technology and Hero abilities (and Acts of Faith).

There's no 'Faith' mechanic that acts like the Ork's 'Whaaah'

Uh, ok. How is this a bad thing? SoB are not supposed to be like Orks, at all.

- The 'Holy Sites' are just a waste of time.

Holy sites can shave a turn or two off research each time you discover one, which can be valuable especially in the early game.

- They have no 'additional' units added by the other DLCs
(Reinforcement/Specialist/Fortification/Assault packs)

As pointed out, neither do any other faction.

- The Exorcist Tanks have less range than any other factions artillery.

Ok. The Sisters in general are a close-range faction. That's not a negative.

And some units still sometimes suffer from the old LoS (Line of Sight) bug. Where basically they can be right next to an enemy unit, but yet can't see it, or attack it.

Have not seen this so-called bug once in the 6 hours so far I've been playing as SoB. Sounds like you may have difficulty with enemies on higher elevation than yourself.

[Jey]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

- The Exorcist Tanks have less range than any other factions artillery.

Ok. The Sisters in general are a close-range faction. That's not a negative.

It's more than that. It's factually untrue.