Space Marine vs Necrons

[TheMac]

I completed the tutorial on easy, and I have to say it was far more challenging than I anticipated. I was new to the game so I certainly made some mistakes, though what I found challenging about the necron is that they just wouldn't die.

They kept coming at me through a choke point close to one of their two cities and they would rush me with all their units and then rotate them out as they took damage which kept me from killing them off. Also their lord had an AOE defensive ability that greatly reduced the damage I was doing to their units.

I was also surprised that one of the strongest Space Marine units appeared to be the heavy infantry with the armor piercing and range three strike ability. They appeared to do much more damage than the standard tank, which was a real let-down. I ended up killing the Necron cities just about the time I could produce the melee-oriented mech.

What are some strategy suggestions or particularly good Space Marine units I might want to employ should I try the tutorial again? Thanks!

[Jey]

Originally posted by TheMac:

They appeared to do much more damage than the standard tank, which was a real let-down.

I will first quote how damage works in the game, because newbies often get "surprising" results.

Originally posted by adozu on the discord server:

so the way damage works each "weapon" will have a base damage, a number of attacks and an accuracy. any other modifier like blast or twin linked influences those.

the formula looks like this: total damage = (base damage x accuracy x number of attacks) * damage resistances

the big thing people overlook however is that the base damage is capped by model hp, for example: my lascannon has 8 base damage but the enemy cultists has 2 hp (20 max hp / 10 models) so in the formula the damage will become:

2 x 0.86 (example of accuracy) x 1

the first thing to get from this is that you can never kill more models than your number of attacks multiplied by the accuracy in a single turn, no matter if you have 9999 base damage.

as for reductions they all stack multiplicatively across different multipliers and additively if it's the same multiplier (with except of invulnerable which always takes the highest)

so take the damage total and divide in any order by armor, ranged reduction (if applicable), feel no pain, etc etc. cap for any one type reduction, including armor, is 84% or 5/6

Once this is out, I want to point out some things.
The Devastators have the Heavy trait on their weapon, which means if they moved this turn, their accuracy (and thus their final damage) are halved.
They also are very squishy (3 HP per model and 3 models).
Losing one model means losing 33% of your damage. And it's pretty easy to kill a Devastator Squad if you catch them, or at worst to cripple them.

Meanwhile, Predators have 36 HP, they also have 4 movement. They do have the heavy trait, but they are vehicles and thus ignore the penalty.
Finally, Killshot gives them +33% damage against their intended target : Vehicles, Fortifications and Monstrous Creatures.

In conclusion, Devastators have higher damage, but they are a squishy defensive unit, when the Predator can lead an offensive with its high HP, higher movement (in open terrain at least...), and not losing its damage when moving.


Admittedly the AI sucks at fighting, so you can use Devastators efficiently usually. Nevertheless, be careful, you could see stronger AIs wiping the floor with your Devastators. And if you ever want to play PvP, you might be thoroughly disappointed with Devastators :P.

What are some strategy suggestions or particularly good Space Marine units I might want to employ should I try the tutorial again?

First of all, you almost always want to start with a research building (Librarium for SM iirc).
Then you want to make a military building.

Tactical Space Marines are a tough versatile (thanks to frag grenades, melta bombs and their bolters) unit.
Bikers are sneaky (they ignore OW) scout quick glass cannon unit. (yes, they do a lot of things. And they have Melta Bombs with Hammer of Wrath, if you want to really annoy the enemy)

Bikers are extremely deadly but they'll get wiped by any decent army (including widlife).
It's probably better for a newbie to use TSM who deal a bit less damage but who don't die at the smallest mistake (still, don't make too big mistakes. TSM die too).

Therefore, it's usually better to start with an Apothecarion (yes, all that text just to decide your second building), but when you'll get more experimented with SM, you may decide to start with an Armoury.

Your third building will depend on your resources.
Hopefully you know Fortresses of Redemption give you eco bonus.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467378026389307392/800440966565593098/unknown.png
(you may need to join the Proxy discord server to see the picture. It explains how you get an eco bonus with the FoR)

If you manage to get two requisition outposts (ore field or grox pastures) with your FoR and/or you have good requisition on your city, you may go for a second military building (usually you repeat the previous one, so a second Apothecarion or a second Armoury).

if you have low requisition (Less than +20/turn), I suggest doing a Refectory to earn some requisition. You'll do your second military building after it.

The fourth building will be a Refectory.

Depending on your resources, you will either make a second refectory (requisition inferior to 25/turn) or you will make a third military building.
If you elect to make an Armory, you can do it even if your requisition is between 20 and 25 requisition.

Then either a refectory (if military building previously) or a military building (if refectory previously).

Depending on your outposts and your choice of military buildings, you may need an energy building and/or a population building at some point.




Ok, that's for the build order.
Now a quick overview of the units. It's commonly accepted that Tier 7 units don't exist.
Unless you draw the fight on purpose (either by fighting on a big map, or fighting a strong AI for example). Therefore I won't speak about them.

-Assault Marines are offensive versatile units. With the Hammer of Wrath and Melta Bombs they can wreck tanks. With the Hammer of Wrath and maybe their Assault Doctrine, they can wreck infantry.
If you manage to reach Tier 6 and still have a lot of ASM, you can get the Shield giving them an invulnerable reduction, making them a pain to kill.

-Devastators are mostly defensive units. You can use them to siege cities with no range 3 weapons (Orks, Eldars, Tyranids, Necrons), or to wreck tanks or high HP high armor units.
Still, they are usually replaced by Predators because Predators don't die to a breeze.

-Apothecaries are healers and okayish against the AI. In PvP (or against strong AI crushing you under numbers), they are mostly useless because your units die before you can heal.
That said, the AI usually doesn't focus properly, so you can usually rotate your units and replace them while healing.

-Thunderfire Cannon are monsters that will annihilate infantry. Anything with three models (and even 2) will be shredded to dust by a Thunderfire if it hasn't moved (and heavily damaged even if the Thunderfire has moved).
The Thunderfire also ignore line of sight so it can be pretty safe. Very strong unit against infantry, but a bit late so don't rely too much on it (instead rely on TSM, ASM, Bikers and Predators, I'd say)


On vehicles you have :
-Razorbacks (if you have the corresponding DLC). They are okayish transport. They should be used as moving infirmary or if you have a lot of open terrain between your city and your frontline. They are not very good fighters (they are squishy for tanks), but if bikers are not an option, Razorbacks are ok for "starter" units.

-Land Speeders : No.
Against Necrons never make Land Speeders. It's the worst. They are okayish against lightly armored targets (guardsmen, eldar infantry (except Fire Dragons)) or very mobile enemies (again Eldars for example) that you can't seem to catch.
They are a bit tankier than bikers, but bikers deal more damage. But Land Speeder have full damage at range 2 instead of one.
...
Basically Land Speeders are more mobile bikers with lower damage (and multi-melta are T7 and thus don't exist.)

-Hunter : You can use them against Necrons (because they have skimmer units), but they are strictly reserved to kill Skimmers/Flyers/Jet Packs (and whatever else it doesn't have a malus against). They suck against everything else, and while they are cheap and pretty tanky for their price, I don't recommend making them unless you're certain they will have their favourite targets.

-Predators : Monstrous Creature/Vehicles/Fortification killer. Technically they can get heavy bolters (at T8) making them monsters, but we said anything above T7 didn't exist.
So they're just a pretty decent killer of big stuff. A few predators (thanks to the Killshot trait) can take down big targets at distance (including cities. Even if they have range 3 weapons, they will just graze the tanks). They are however complete trash against low HP infantry (like Necron Warriors and Immortals for example), so keep it in mind.

-Dreadnought : Hero killer. If you give it Hammer of Wrath, it can destroy anything with few models that would stray near your frontline.
Since they only have 3 moves and are a melee unit, they are overall bad at dealing with vehicles (who often have 4 moves), but again, if a vehicle comes close to a Dreadnought (or you can prevent a retreat with ASM jumping for example), you can just cast Hammer of Wrath and attack and look the fuming wreck you'll leave behind.
If the enemy is a melee faction and have either stuff with low AP or high armor, it's worth it to look into dreadnoughts to deal with it.


With the build order and a quick overview of the units, you should be able to decide what to do.

[TheMac]

Wow! What a fantastic review of building order and units. Some of the names escape me since you correctly discerned that my experience level with this game is near zero. J I do have all the DLC though.

Based on what you recommended, I see several mistakes and a few things I did well.
- My requisition was quite low to begin with and only reached 30 or so near the end, thus I could only build one unit at a time.
- I also didn't invest heavily in research until later in the game, with a goal of reaching around 30 research per turn.
-I did manage energy well, for whatever good that did me
-Still not 100% sure how the fortresses that come from orbit work. I used them to secure my outposts, putting them in front of outposts as my front line expanded towards the enemy. Sounds like from what you wrote that it's possible to drop them directly on outposts.
-I used outposts as "healing stations" for my troops and vehicles, because I believe I read that units stationed on an outpost healed 50% faster
- I never built the land speeders which are possibly units called "hunters" because they seemed too specific
-Yes, I got lucky leaving a squad of devastators in the back and using them defensively. They never moved so they hit pretty hard, though I absolutely see what you are saying about how weak they are if engaged by enemy troops.
-I never had any luck with the motorcycle. It just died too quickly, though it does really move and could be something good as an explorer.
- I also didn't invest in the redish-purple resource that allows you to buy champions until later and I didn't purchase any goodies for them, then when I did, I tended to negate any of the artifacts they carried by hauling them around in the troop transport and thus hitting a cooldown when they disembarked.
-I also researched everything in a level before moving on, just as an experiment. Wouldn't recommend that for a second game. As you pointed out there are good units and some that are more situational.

Are there any units that can clear terrain? I sure would like to get rid of some of the red weeds that cause damage to your units and require your units to stop, regardless of movement points.

[Kornstalx]

Originally posted by Iffu:

(and multi-melta are T7 and thus don't exist.)

Does the PvP community only play Small maps 1v1 or 2v2 or something? Everyone keeps suggesting multiplayer games are over too fast for anything advanced, but I just can't see that rush happening unless everyone is playing duels or something.

On a Medium/Large map with two players and 2-4 AIs I just cannot understand the game being over that fast.

[Jey]

Originally posted by TheMac:

-I did manage energy well, for whatever good that did me

If you managed it well, you probably managed it poorly :B
Seriously though, to manage "well" energy, you must first establish something :
Do you make units using energy?
If you do, then you should of course make sure you have a decent production of energy to pay for them (and maybe their upkeep).

However, if you don't use energy to make units (only to pay buildings upkeep), then you must manage energy in a just-in-time way.
You only get a malus if your stockpile is negative. Having your energy production in the red is not a problem in itself. You should only build energy when you calculate that your stockpile will go in the red if you don't.

The later you build your energy building, the longer you can build actually useful stuff (more requisition, more military buildings....).

Still not 100% sure how the fortresses that come from orbit work.

Please hop in the proxy studios discord server, check the image I posted above and leave if you don't like discord. A picture is worth a thousand words.

-I used outposts as "healing stations" for my troops and vehicles, because I believe I read that units stationed on an outpost healed 50% faster

Don''t believe what people say : Check by yourself!
There are (almost?) no invisible effects. If you get a bonus (or a malus) it's visible somewhere in the trait or by hovering on your stats.
In this case, it's indeed correct, there is a +5 points of percentage bonus to passive healing for units on an outpost (and +10 for those in city tiles)

- I never built the land speeders which are possibly units called "hunters" because they seemed too specific

Land Speeders are fast skimmers, Hunters are "Predator but with an anti-air weapon instead of the las cannon".

-I never had any luck with the motorcycle. It just died too quickly, though it does really move and could be something good as an explorer.

Glass cannon require some skills to use. With time, you'll understand better when it's a good time to hit hard and when it's not.

Are there any units that can clear terrain?

In general it's the colonizer unit that does that. Except Space Marines don't have a colonizer unit. So instead it's the Thunderfire Cannon that does that. Which is very late.
I suggest playing with a lower amount of wire weed.

Originally posted by Kornstalx:

Does the PvP community only play Small maps 1v1 or 2v2 or something?

1v1 are usually on tiny, 2v2 on Medium and 3v3 on Large.

Everyone keeps suggesting multiplayer games are over too fast for anything advanced, but I just can't see that rush happening unless everyone is playing duels or something.

If you play Space Marines and follow the advice above and don't suck at fighting, you'll see that you too you finish your games pretty fast.
While the AI is obviously less skilled than a player it doesn't change much : In the end the one who manages to kill the enemy army quickly with few losses will win.

There are games where no one manages to take a decisive advantage in the mid game, but they are somewhat of a rarity.

[TheMac]

Wow! You're in France? Your English is amazing! Thanks for all the help. :) You probably have so many awards for you length and helpful answers that my two won't make a difference, though you should know I sure appreciate the help. Lots of very interesting info.

i looked at the image you linked, and I'm learning more about the FOR. My question was really more in line with things like - what radius of tiles do they collect resources from? What I see is that resources from outposts are already delivered directly to my cities, so it was hard to understand how adding a FOR would increase the resources gained. I mainly use them to help me advance into new territory and to protect outposts.

I'm trying to understand healing a bit better. What I see on the vehicle side is that they heal a little bit whenever they don't fight for a turn (popup says "performing repairs"), even if they move. I'm wondering if the same is true for the space marine infantry. Will they heal as I run around the map, as long as I don't fight? Will they still heal their 15% per turn if they sit in a vehicle? There is so much going on and so much to learn that it's hard for me to keep track. I went through the manual looking for info on healing and it only talked about the button you can push to heal "hold position until healed" or it discussed various other units that can heal different types of infantry or vehicles.

Thanks for the info on clearing tiles. Yes, I just finished watching a YT video where a player used the thunderfire cannon to clear a tile. It's interesting that you suggested changing the amount of wire weed. I'm guessing that's in the advanced options when setting up a game? I'll have to look for it. Thanks again. Second game is going a little better, though I'm still experimenting with the different units, research, and building options.

[TheMac]

Also, I find the difficulty levels a bit confusing. For example at the lowest level of Neophyte the description reads "moderate loyalty disadvantage given." I would assume that means the enemy has a moderate loyalty disadvantage? That would make more sense than believing that moving to a higher level of difficulty would grant me at the level of "battle brother" a "small loyalty disadvantage given."

Edit: I tried the game on Neophyte and I was very surprised to see that I started off with -15 loyalty. So however crazy it is to think that what most people would associate with neophyte as "beginner" or "new player" is actually much more difficult than the Sargent difficulty which gives no bonuses, but also no disadvantages. The Captain level is much easier than the Sargent level of difficulty when applying to the player. How strange. Glad to know how the difficulty settings work now.

[Corseth]

Difficulty is a bit confusing, yes - it applies to the player it is ON, not to other players. A better word for it would be "Handicap" because that's how it functions.

So like, if I am player A, and I have CPU 1 and CPU 2 (and we're all space marines)
If I set MY difficulty to "Emperor", then I get +100 loyalty and my units start at level 5.
If I set CPU 1's difficulty to Emperor, then CPU 1 gets +100 loyalty and level 5 units.

Thus if I want the game to be easier, I should RAISE my value and/or lower AI values.
If I want the game to be harder, I should LOWER my value and/or RAISE AI values

The "Difficulty" menu option when starting a game just automatically sets all AI difficulties to the corresponding value (So if I set it to max, "Impossible", all space marine AI's would be set to Emperor, and get +100 loyalty and 5 levels on units)

Effectively, selecting a difficulty for a player slot gives bonuses or penalties to that player slot.

[Corseth]

As for healing:
Many units (Necrons especially, but Orks on orkoid fungus tiles, etc) get a bonus healing of some kind, often "+2 HP per turn". This is a bonus and usually happens regardless of other situations, but is not something all units get. Still, there is a lot of varieties of this, either intrinsic to the unit or researched.

"Normal" healing is something all units can do by default. If a unit forfeits its move and action, AND it did not take any damage this turn, it will heal. THIS is the healing that %heal rate bonuses from outpost and city tiles benefits. Typically, I believe this is 10% of their max HP per applicable turn base.

[TheMac]

Originally posted by Corseth:

Difficulty is a bit confusing, yes - it applies to the player it is ON, not to other players. A better word for it would be "Handicap" because that's how it functions.

So like, if I am player A, and I have CPU 1 and CPU 2 (and we're all space marines)
If I set MY difficulty to "Emperor", then I get +100 loyalty and my units start at level 5.
If I set CPU 1's difficulty to Emperor, then CPU 1 gets +100 loyalty and level 5 units.

Thus if I want the game to be easier, I should RAISE my value and/or lower AI values.
If I want the game to be harder, I should LOWER my value and/or RAISE AI values

The "Difficulty" menu option when starting a game just automatically sets all AI difficulties to the corresponding value (So if I set it to max, "Impossible", all space marine AI's would be set to Emperor, and get +100 loyalty and 5 levels on units)

Effectively, selecting a difficulty for a player slot gives bonuses or penalties to that player slot.

Very well said!

[TheMac]

Originally posted by Corseth:

As for healing:
Many units (Necrons especially, but Orks on orkoid fungus tiles, etc) get a bonus healing of some kind, often "+2 HP per turn". This is a bonus and usually happens regardless of other situations, but is not something all units get. Still, there is a lot of varieties of this, either intrinsic to the unit or researched.

"Normal" healing is something all units can do by default. If a unit forfeits its move and action, AND it did not take any damage this turn, it will heal. THIS is the healing that %heal rate bonuses from outpost and city tiles benefits. Typically, I believe this is 10% of their max HP per applicable turn base.

This makes perfect sense. So no move and no attack = some kind of heal. That's why people said they used the space marine tanks that carry infantry as "hospitals" since they can protect infantry they carry and the infantry do not use movement or attack options when they are cargo. Thanks!

[Jey]

Originally posted by TheMac:

what radius of tiles do they [Fortresses of Redemption] collect resources from?

1 tile.

it was hard to understand how adding a FOR would increase the resources gained.

Is it clear now?

I'm trying to understand healing a bit better.

Corseth gave a good explanation. A topic popped up about it specifically just recently, and I answered there. You can get the same explanation as Corseth gave as well as my opinion on Gladius manual :').

I'm guessing that's in the advanced options when setting up a game?

Yes. Same as river density who can be a big problem for some factions.

[Ninjamestari]

Against AI, Devastators are insanely good and you get them early. It's good that the tutorial pits you against necrons, because it will definitely hammer the point through that damaging an opponent is not enough, you need to get kills. Focus fire, and fight in positions where the fighting is advantageous to you. Also, melee units deal quite a bit of damage to the Necron so Assault Marines can be utilized. They can also jump behind them, making it easier for you to surround certain units and kill them. Most of the time against AI it feels like Assault Marines are a waste of tech because you can just usually lure the AI into a position where you can freely rain fire on them.

Frag Grenades seem to be useless, I've yet to encounter situations where frags would do more damage than the standard bolter attack, but Melta Bombs are a MASSIVE power spike if you have loads of Tactical Marines. Guardsmen benefit from Frags quite a bit more than Marines do, because they have weaker attack and more models, so they get to throw more grenades as well.

Necron cities against AI are insanely easy to siege due to them only having 2 range, so a couple devastators or an offensively placed Fortress will be able to control the situation when properly supported by your army.

As far as landspeeders are concerned, their main advantage is that they're skimmers, so a choke point created by water tiles can just be skipped and you can circle your opponent and strike them from rear. As mentioned already, the speeder is made out of paper, so you may want to draw the overwatch shots away from them with a tankier unit before engaging with the speeders and killing the enemy units. This is something the bikes can only do on open terrain.

One more thing, you can hide wounded Marines inside your fortresses, so utilize that to prevent needless losses, hang on a few turns and those Marines can fight again.

[Stardustfire]

frags are super situational for SM, only benefit of them is when you fight a high count, low Armor unit in cover.

[Ninjamestari]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

frags are super situational for SM, only benefit of them is when you fight a high count, low Armor unit in cover.

Quite frankly sounds like a waste of tech

[Jey]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

frags are super situational for SM, only benefit of them is when you fight a high count, low Armor unit in cover.

Cover or not cover doesn't matter.
Frag grenades do not ignore cover.

Originally posted by Ninjamestari:

Quite frankly sounds like a waste of tech

Really depends what you face. Sometimes the additional damage from frags allow you to require one unit fewer to kill an enemy.
Clearing gaunts/cultists is made less painful with frags. I'd need to check, but I think guardsmen can also be cleared a bit more easily with frags.