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There are also a few pure Sisters units left ... such as Seraphims, although I am not sure if they are truly needed.
As heroes or pseudo hero units we appear to have Dogmatas and Palatines ... but those might be redundant ... Palatines simply sound like lower ranked Canonesses and Dogmatas would probably be yet another support hero. Looking at the Lexicanum entry ... there's also the Reliquant at Arms. Perhaps a melee focussed support not quite hero unit?
I can't stop wishing for Mobile Cathedrals ... but lacking any official models that's probably a job for modders.
I definitely liked the Tyranid Maleceptor, in fact it is a unit i have requested in various threads in the past. It is indeed a very useful unit BUT, i still think the Tyrannids should have gotten an air unit instead (Harridans or Harpies).
Similarly for Chaos Space Marines, i do think the Chaos Terminators are cool and are a way for a late game unit to exploit boons of chaos, but still, why not another air unit, preferably a bomber? Hell Talon?
Assault Terminators are fine. I don't find them particularly attractive in the sense that they fill pretty much the same role as the normal Terminators with small differences. But i won't complain about them, they add variety.
Orks Burna Boyz are mostly meh for me. Not much reason to make them. I would have prefered the Kommandoz or some kind of artillery.
The Guard Field Artillery again is decent, but it is still anti-infantry like the basilisk and it is still an early game unit. I just wanted a heavy artillery to upgrade the basilisk with in the late game. We still lack that.
The Necrons Skorpeh Destroyers are cool. I wanted Lynchguards in order to provide some boost to the heroes as well, but they are good too. I like that we have a heavy infantry option now. They really do great damage and are quite resilient.
T'au Breachers i don't like at all, for the same reason i don't like Fire Warriors. I don't see myself making them, but then again, i don't like playing the T'au either.
The Eldar Wraithlord buffles me. Not a bad unit but placed really close to the Wraithblades in terms of role. Why not Warp Spiders?
Mechanicus Sydonian Dragoons are good no issues there. The provide some quality anti-armor.
On the other hand, i am baffled about the Arco-flaggelants for the Sisters. Don't see much need for them at all. Sisters definitely needed a heavy infantry for the later stages of the game instead. They don't have a lack of light infantry. OK, they are not useless in the sense that they can prove useful vs too much cover, but only in the very early game as they are extremely easy to kill and they lack armor penetration.
As for the Talon for the Drukhari, it was a universal request so no complaints there.
Overall, i have average impressions for this pack.
(From a PvE perspective)
MvP for me is Assault Terminators. They make SM infantry viable into late game. I'd say Terminator/Centurions is the strongest build now.
Chaos Terminators - really enjoy having a solid base for all the chaos enchantments. Beefed up they are viable into the end game.
Lots of other solid units: Destroyers, Wraithlord, Maleceptor, Bombard, Talos.
Good situational units: Burna Boyz, Breachers, Dragoons, Flagellants.
Why?
Assault terminators basically lose the stormbolters for more inv damage reduction. The melee damage they do is exactly the same as the normal terminators. So you lose a lot of damage and make them strictly melee. They also need a new research a tier later. And all they get in return is 67% inv damage reduction instead of 33%. Which is definitely nice to have, but at 15hp is not an enormous game changer, they are still vulnerable to late game units and super heavies like the normal terminators. Also they do not benefit from the research to buff orbital deployment like the normal terminators.
Personally i don't see them as needed. If you want a meatshield, normal terminators can do pretty much the same and be more useful offensively. The difference they make vs the normal terminators is not that huge to warrant labeling them as "making infantry viable into late game". If normal terminators aren't viable, assault terminators aren't either.
When exactly is a good situation for making Dragoons instead of Ironstrider or simply Kastelans?
Dang. I'm writing apology input wafers to Kastelans.
Sure.
Terminators while very decent for their tier get outclassed pretty quickly. They don't do enough damage and they can't survive vs end game units. Centurions, on the other hand, can pull their weight damage wise but lack suitability even with their range.
Assault Terminators are incredibly tough. I'm talking replacement for Captain tough. Their low hit points and high damage reduction makes them easy to heal. Their concussive melee attacks aren't negligible either. VS AI Assault Terminators provide the perfect buffer to allow Centurions to do their work.
I think Assault Terminators need their damage reduction to be nerfed to 60% maybe even 50%. Cuz they make Space Marines into EZ mode.
The difference in toughness between the 2 isn't as enormous as you suggest, that was my initial point. To illustrate:
Normal Terminators have 15hp, 10 armor, 33% inv resistance
Assault Terminators have 15hp, 10 armor, 67% inv resistance (2X basically as 67% is rounded up from 66,66%)
I will ignore the normal armor from the comparison since it is equal, for simplicity sake.
15 hp and 33% inv damage resistance equals around 22 effective hp
15hp and 67% inv damage resistance equals 45 effective hp.
So basically Assault Terminators have 2X the toughness of normal Terminators. BUT they lose the stormbolters. Stormbolters aren't exactly half the damage of Terminators, depending on enemy armor more around 1/3, BUT they are the only weapon that can overwatch, and the only weapon that can get buffed by any doctrine, and the only weapon that can hit air units and units at range 2.
So therefore yes, Assault Terminators are more resilient, but they lose effectiveness, they become mostly a meatshield. And 45 effective HP plus 10 armor, while significant, is not that great for a tier 8 unit, many more units from other factions can have far more effective hp for similar 8,9,10 armors. Basically, Assault Terminators are the equivalent of Bullgryns but at a higher tier.
Bullgryns are T6, cost 60 resources, have 72 effective hp (but 6 normal armor instead of 10), so they are basically the equivalent meatshield of the Assault Terminators, available much earlier and cheaper. I don't see why the Assault Terminators need a nerf as you suggest. In fact that's my original point, i don't see them as much important.
The elephant is the room is that Bullgryns are a meatshield for a faction that needs them, Space Marines do not need a meatshield that much, and normal Terminators can provide a frontline just fine, with better and more versatile firepower at an earlier tier.
That is why while i don't think Assault Terminators are a bad unit, i am not that impressed with them. They are meh for me. You only bring them out if you have better units to damage the enemy with, they are not the universal frontline that the normal terminators are.
The rest is highly situational.
Well, that's 4 out of 11, I'm pretty sure we had worse unit packs than this.
IF you need more bolter shots, then Terminators are the unit for you.
IF you want an indomitable and easy to heal wall of ceramite to take hits for the rest of your army, then Assault Terminators are the best non-hero unit in the game.
Wraithlord eliminates a Terminator unit in 1 turn.
Wraithlord eliminates an Assault Terminator unit in 3 turns.
Skorpion eliminates a Terminator unit in 1 turn.
Skorpion eliminates an Assault Terminator unit in 4 turns.
Knight Crusader eliminates a Terminator unit in 1 turn.
Knight Crusader eliminates an Assault Terminator unit in 2 turns.
(statistics based on non-upgraded units)
One reason Assault Terminators are so tough is because of their low hit points per model. In Gladius each attack’s damage is reduced to a model’s hit point prior to other damage reduction. ATs also have a high armor value. It is a fact that most weapons with high armor penetration are low attacks and high damage. Such weapons are reduced to 1.5 damage per attack, less remaining armor, less invulnerable damage reduction, less other damager reductions if applicable. The low hit points synergize with Apothecaries and Chaplains who can quickly heal AT units to full health.
The one weakness Assault Terminators have is their high model count which makes them vulnerable to blast weapons. However, as the squad is reduced in numbers this vulnerability goes away and the unit becomes harder to finish off.
Assault Terminators are one tech level higher but cost the same as Terminators.
Bullygrins were brought up by TemplarGR as an example of a lower cost meat-shield unit. Units are balanced by their performance within a faction. Even if Bullygrins were available for Space Marines, Assault Terminators would be a better choice to cover your Centurions because they take less damage than Bullygrins in almost every case and are far easier to heal.
In conclusion, Assault Terminators are tough; really though. Easy to heal. Reasonably priced. Their melee attacks are not insignificant - being effective at finishing off units for Centurions. They completely change things for the Space Marine endgame.
The low hp per model as in favor of the Assault Terminators does not hold water. People wildely overestimate the importance of this effect. And in my opinion, they are viewing it "wrong" and arrive to the wrong conclusions, like in this case.
You should think about it like this: Each model is a separate unit so the enemy needs more attacks to hit more models. YES, an anti-armor single target weapon will have issues vs the Assault Terminators, for example the extremely overrated Predator tank. But after T8 when the Assault Terminators come out, most units by then have multiple attacks and weapons, on top of having anti-infantry abilities like Stomp and traits like large blast. So they have no issue vs infantry.
Because at the end of the day, 5 models of Assault Terminators just have 3hp each. 3hp is nothing. Most weapons can deal 3hp damage in the late game. The vast majority of the weapons in this game do not rely on high damage but on high numbers of attacks anyway.
Also, where did you get the myth that supposedly Bullgryns are much squishier than Assault Terminators? Bullgryns have 36hp, 12hp per model. Yes they are more susceptible to higher damage weapons, but still, 36hp in total are 36hp in total. More than double than the 15hp in total the Terminators have. They are a meatshield, what matters is they exert control of map tiles and sustain damage, and they do it just fine and for a lower cost, 2 tiers earlier. In the end, the meatshield is preferable to be cheaper.
Also about the healing factor, at least as much as Apothecaries are concerned, at the very late game Assault Terminators come out, Apothecaries are much less effective because they are extremely squishy and they need to be adjucent to the unit they heal. So if you are relying on having an Apothecary pocketing the Assault Terminators and healing them constantly, you are in for a surprise as even the AI will prioritize the Apothecaries most of the time, and at T8 and beyond they can kill them easily....
And let's not forget the "map clutter" factor. Assault Terminators are meatshields, but lack damage, range, and ability to hit fliers. So you need something that hits harder at range. Also you need Apothecaries. Also you need Transports to move all those things. That clutters the hexes around quickly. You lose efficiency because you simply can't place everything on the map in ways to make your army efficient.
Normal Terminators are better in that regard because they "carry" with them a squad of Tactical marines, in the sense that their stormbolter weapons pretty much are the equivalent of the Tactical marines boltguns, with the added benefit that they do 2X the attacks at all ranges, movement or not. So you instantly gain map efficiency because not only they can hold the line but they can shoot stuff too. Effectively meaning you don't need Tactical Marines hiding behind Assault Marines, you can have the same damage in one tile. They are also available one tier earlier and have a special orbital drop research too.
In the end, are Assault Terminators a bad unit? No they are not. But they are not that great either. And that was my original point. Perhaps in the very late game, Assault Terminators in combination with Devastator Centurions are a nice setup, sure. But the combo of normal Terminators and Devastator Centurions still existed prior and it is not much worse, and it scales better from the mid game since you can build Terminators earlier and they are more useful earlier when you don't have many Devastator Centurions.
TemplarGR is correct. If a Tier 0 unit’s worth of firepower is what your end-game lacks, then Terminators are indeed better in that regard.
TemplarGR is correct again. This is why Assault Terminators are a game changing unit for Space Marines. If you want an indomitable and easy to heal wall of ceramite to take hits for your Centurions, then Assault Terminators are the unit for you.
This is false as demonstrated by the kill stats I posted in my previous post. Terminators simply can’t handle the end game front lines. They die very fast vs super units. Their death breaks morale. Then the rest of your army dies faster.
There being other types of weapons doesn’t contradict the favor of having low hit points vs high damage weapons. Reductio ad absurdum: there are weapons which penetrate armor therefore holding high armor as being in favor of Terminators doesn’t hold water.
VS AP0 weapons the Assault Terminator is taking max 0.17 damage per attack.
VS AP6 weapons the Assault Terminator is taking max 0.65 damage per attack
It gets even better with Flesh is Weak and Cover.
Nowhere. Here is what I said: “Even if Bullygrins were available for Space Marines, Assault Terminators would be a better choice to cover your Centurions because they take less damage than Bullygrins in almost every case and are far easier to heal”.
Exactly. Plus they have 13% IDR and 33% ADR less.
Correct. Apothecaries are your most fragile units. Keep Apothecary units in cover and behind the front lines. Rotate Assault Terminator units from the front lines to heal them. Use Chaplains. Use transports to scoop up critically damaged Assault Terminator units.
Yup. Centurions.
Obviously it's 17% IDR (50 vs 67%), but that's not the most important.
See you could say "Oh come on, Assault Terminators only have 33% additional Invul reduction compared to Terminators, it's not THAT much".
Except it actually means halving damage.
It's the same here with those 17% reduction.
Going from 50% to 67% means reducing damage by 33%.
But the most important is armor.
It's definitely not a 33% additional damage reduction.
See let's take a 0 AP weapon.
On bullgryns (6 armor), the damages are halved.
On Terminators (10 armor), the damages are divided by 6.
i.e Terminators take three times less damage from 0 AP than bullgryns.
"But you won't use 0 AP weapon against Terminators duh".
Probably not, but if you look at 2 AP weapon it's 67% dmg vs 33% dmg, i.e Terminator still take half as much damage as Bullgryns.
"You won't use 2 AP either OMGGGGG"
Well... Yes you will.
Many strong units have secondary weapons with lowish AP.
Many chaff units that you can still use in the late game (as... you know.. chaff?) have low AP.
Against Bullgryns, they can grind them down/finish them off.
Against Terminators eeeeeeh. Not so much.
"But look at all those 6 AP weapons!"
Most of them have high damage, meaning even if you go with the fact that Assault Terminators don't benefit as much from armor, Bullgryns will still suffer more damage due to HP cap.
I can think of the top of my mind of only three units that would be more efficient against Assault Termies than against Bullgryns.
- Praetorians (and Skorpekh Destroyers as they have basically the same offensive stats)
- Sacresancts.
Due to both having 6 AP low damage high accuracy many attacks.
TL;DR : Saying "17% IDR and 33% ADR" doesn't do justice to the absolute madness that are Assault Terminators.