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I would give overrated to Chaos Lord instead of Master of Possession. The best of Master of Possession isn't buffing or summoning but massive healing on everythings. He also start with tons of armour, can get Marks and can get Boons. The best healer in late game IMO.
Meanwhile Chaos Lord is really overrated. I used to love him very much. Before I realised his skill set is really ♥♥♥♥ in MP. Reflect melee damage? No sane players gonna attack him when see skill activation. Boon chance Increase for 1 tile radius, suck. 30% invulnerable save at skill lv3? SM Captain get 50% save as starting trait. The last ultimate skill is just heavy strike in melee. He is still good with full gears and buffs but I would not focus on him much. SM Captain is better overall.
I will give underrated to Dark Disciples. Their buff is weaker than Noctilith Crown but they can move around. Give them Mark of Slannesh and follow up your frontline. I would prefer them than Noctilith Crown in some situations by several reasons. First Noctilith Crown use energy upkeep that bothering me usually. Second Noctilith Crown have 10 turns cooldown and not really tough. Opponents can easily destroy its with melta gun. You need a lot of Cultists to build its repeatly, so your battleline will crowd with non damage units and that a bad news for CSM WHO LACK OF RANGE SUPPORT.
Ork
I think Warboss is still a must unit for Ork. He is little fragile but any heroes are fragile in multiplayer because everyone focus to kill heroes first. Ork early game is really suck and Warboss can help. Warboss late game can change role to support with skill 3 and 4. I give him repair item and help Painboyz heal vehicles (lol).
Overrated unit I would give to Flash Gitz. They are just tanky unit but low damage output. Their gun can shoot everythings but very inaccurate (33%). Their fire after moving is really pathetic. They need Ammo Runt skill to be slightly better which wasting research time instead of go to Meganobz or beyond. I would prefer Tank Busta with AP Bomb rather than them.
Underrated one would be Killa Kans. I see my friends always ignore them and go to cooler units like Deffkoptas or Flash Gitz. They are Ork savior in early game. Many times I have bad luck discover opponent very quick. Killa Kans can carry me out of situations. They are good on all infantry, tough, can build from Boyz building and MEK CAN HEAL THEM.
Craftworld Aeldari
Rangers seriously? All range 3 infantry is good overall, especially Rangers who can fire before moving. They are useful entire game in some matchup (Ork/Tyranid). Overrated one should be Wraithblades. They should swap tier with Warlock. I can't feel they are really tier 6 unit. They are good at melee and slightly tough but Warlock is better overall except fragile. Warlock can teleport by themselves, have psychic skill which good on everythings and still good on melee combat too.
Underrated one I would give to Shinning Spears. Yeah, I don't insane. Shinning Spears are the most cost effective unit of Eldar. They are super fast, can scout, hit like a truck on monster/vehicle/fort. In late game they also can sneak and snatch rear opponent outposts. Really make him annoying. Someone might "but they are very fragile". Of course but they are very cheap and they grant energy on death too. So you can send them die on mission impossible. They might die but who care. You can spam them from 2nd or 3rd city continuously anyways.
For one, Master of Possession heal is really meh, at level 3 it is 18, great for sure, but costs 2hp to the Master of Possession and he has 9 base hp total, so even at higher levels it still is a hefty chunk of his own health just for one heal. Not only that, but the heal is range 1 and the Master while not squishy like the Painboy for example, he is still relatively average for a hero on armor and resistances. He can be really risky to use on the frontline if you keep losing 2 hp each turn. And he is relatively expensive. And let's not forget that Chaos SM don't need heals as much because after you give fearless and veterans of the long war to everyone that doesn't already have it, morale becomes a non-issue for your infantry, so losing a unit is not a big deal. Not a bad hero but he is considered more useful than he really is in my opinion. His direct damage is mediocre and his summons are useful but not a must-have.
On the other hand, i definitely disagree on Chaos Lord being overrated. For one, you are ignoring the fact that even his base attacks at lvl1 deal a lot of damage and have high armor penetration. Give him a few items and he becomes a great combat unit. And he is relatively tanky too. Granted, he needs to waste 3 skill points to become as tanky as the Master of Possession, but given that his buff for getting boons of Chaos and his great damage will allow him to gain Boons of Chaos sooner, he will become a monster eventually. He is mandatory if you plan on going with booned infantry too. His Ichor Blood for returning melee damage is "ok", yes a good human player will avoid it, but that is not a bad thing.
I had been playing RTS and MOBAs competitively at the highest possible non-pro level for decades... One of the key lessons was to always remember than a defensive skill doesn't have to deal damage or shield you necesserily, as long as you become an unviable target and force the opponent to ignore you and/or move elsewhere, you win. Heroes are priority targets, making the Chaos Lord unwanted for melee attacks for half the time (2 turn cooldown, free action) is great even if you never deal the damage. Having said that, i never take this skill early, i leave the lvl8-10 points for it, as getting the damage reduction and the bonus chance for chaos boons takes priority. I wasn't aware pvp people thought the Lord was a good hero for Ichor Blood, Ichor Blood is just the icing on the cake, the main thing is his combat ability, especially vs armor, and his aid at your infantry getting stronger prior to Daemon Princes.
I wouldn't also say that Dark Disciples are necesserily underrated. Yes perhaps they are underused by the pvp community and i could see why, seeing as they mostly play on very fast settings and use a few strong units, getting a light infantry supporting unit may be an afterthought. But in general Dark Disciples are considered "ok" i think. I haven't seen any protests here in the forums or elsewhere about them, and i too use them occasionaly when i play Chaos. They are not a super unit or anything, but the buff is indeed useful and their price is low. The reason most people would ignore this unit is because its damage is very bad (half that of the Cultists...) and they have to rely on their many models to survive but later in the game they can be easily cleared by blast weapons and grenades. Their armor is "meh" at 4 and they do not benefit from their own buff, which is really bad i think and i don't know why the devs made that decision (tabletop reasons?). Best you can do is give them Mark of Slaanesh for the +1 movement mostly and just use them as a buffing meat shield. Not that they can buff many units. Many later game units already have invulnerable resistances of their own. Still, nice to have if you play on slower settings and can actually make use of them because otherwise the production queue would be mostly reserved for Cultists, Spawns, and Princes.
As for the Warboss, yes the Warboss is still a useful unit to get for Orks, he is just not the super unit many think he is.I have seen past threads/guides/comments where people more or less claimed that Warboss was what you needed for damage, which is no longer the case in my opinion. Lots of DLCs have solved this issue considerably. Even without the DLCs you have other options like the Killa Kans you mentioned.
Speaking of Killa Kans, i wasn't aware that people overlooked them in pvp. They are an awesome unit, one of the best early game units for Orks. Basically i am not even sure why they only cost 40 ore, they are definitely a little underpriced. I suppose the next value would be 60 and 60 would be a little too much. They are deceptively mediocre vs vehicles and structures due to their poor melee accuracy (but they can still bite them a little), but they can clear any mid tier infantry easily and they are relatively tanky for an early unit, the only downside that they can't use cover. But for the price, it is no biggy, they are discount Dreadnoughts.... The main minus to using them is that they scale poorly later in the game, you are going to lose all of them after a point since no cover, only 7 armor, and only 2 models.... There is only so much having high hp can do as the enemy gains better armor piercing...
I have to disagree with Flash Gitz. You have a false impression, Flash Gitz base accuracy is 6 (50%), not 4(33%). And their weapon is not heavy. They also have gitfinda trait for +2 accuracy if stationary (therefore 8), and with ammo runt they can get another +2 for a potential 10 accuracy. So i don't understand why complain about their accuracy, they are among the more accurate Ork infantry.
Flash Gitz are basically the go-to early infantry unit if you have their DLC. They are tankier than the Boyz, even with 'Eavy Armor, they are range 2, and they can do great damage to infantry and decent damage vs vehicles too, so they are a great all rounder. Tank Bustas are definitely situational, and while they are probably a priority unit if you don't have access to the DLC, if you have the Gitz, Tank Bustas should only be useful vs early vehicle spam, or very nasty armored neutrals.
The reason for this, is that Flash Gitz are not terrible vs vehicles (in fact they can be better than Tankbustas), but Tank Bustas are definitely TERRIBLE vs infantry. Flash Gits, even without gitfinda and ammo runt, deal basically 15 damage at vehicles with 2 armor penetration, ignoring WAAAAGH and/or other buffs. If for example the vehicle is space marines with 8 armor, that means they are going to do a respectable 7.5 damage, no buffs included, from range 2.... Potentially much more with 10 WAAAAAAGH and other buffs. On the other hand Tankbustas main attack will do 10 damage with 6 armor penetration (4 base + 2 from trait vs vehicles). Assuming no other buffs (and Tankbustas should get fewer since they lack gitfinda and ammo runt), vs the same SM vehicle with 8 armor Tankbustas will do 6.67 damage.... Yes, that's correct, Tankbustas will actually do LESS damage than Flash Gitz vs an 8 armor vehicle....
So, with Flash Gitz, you can do what damage Tankbustas can do, or more, vs vehicles, and can clear infantry. Also Flash Gitz are double the hitpoints so they are tankier. So why pick Tankbustas? Yes Tankbustas get the 10 turn cooldown bomb, but that is an additional research and is a 10 cooldown ability on a very squishy unit that has to use it from range 1.... And what damage will it do to the afformentioned 8 armor vehicle? 15 damage if you manage to get to range 1 with all full hp. Definitely great for an early game unit, but unless you are getting spammed with vehicles at tier 2, it is better to just skip tankbustas and their bomb research, and get Flash Gitz.... They are more versatile and tankier, and only cost 33% more.
I said Rangers are overrated mainly because they are situational. They are not a bad unit, but they do not solve the issues early Aeldari have around exploration and anti-armor. They are good vs biological units, which is fine and dandy until you realize that Guardians and even better Banshees are good vs them anyway. Rangers can be very risky for exploring and are terrible if caught by melee units. Vs anything non biological they are to be ignored. Basically they can be a good secondary unit depending on the situation for the current game, but that niche is small seeing how Banshees and later infantry/vehicles can overshadow them in the mid game and beyond, unless you play vs a biological enemy, mostly Tyrannids.
I agree that Wraithblades should probably have been an earlier unit, i would have prefered them to be T6, but T7 is not that bad. But the comparison with Warlocks is not correct. Warlocks are a squishy psyker unit, while Wraithblades are a frontline infantry unit. They serve different roles. Warlocks are very easy to kill. They basically have the equivalent of 16hp with no armor at all. Seeing as they are tier 5, they are one of the squishiest mid-game units in the game, and at T5 there is lots of firepower around.... Yes Warlocks can deal insane amounts of damage, especially vs infantry, but they are a very risky unit and you need to have a frontline to distract and hold your opponents in place in order to use them. Something that is the job for Wraithblades.
As for Shinning Spears, i agree that they are a very useful unit, like all tier 1 "bikes" can be. Shinning Spears are unique in their anti-armor role, they can be a real pain vs vehicles if you can manage to keep them alive.
Overrated:
- Admech, Hard to tell, but I choose Onagers. While being good unit against flyiers and units with high ranged dmg reduction. They should not be the army core unit.
- AM, Rogal Dorn. Twice as expensive as Leman Russ, but not twice better imo.
- CSM, Helbrute. Not worth to get, on next tier you can research Maulerfiend which does everything much better then Helbrute and is a lot tougher unit.
- Necrons, Monolith. I just wrote this here cause I see like over 50% necrons players going straight to Moniliths spam without any lower tier army. And they usually fail due to that against experienced players. Monoliths are good, but not that good you ignore every other units they have. That's why Monolith overrated.
-SM, Devastator space marines. They just feels too squishy and accuracy penalty after moving criples them down too much. IMO not worth to waste research and resource on this one.
- Tau, Riptides. I know lot of people disagree with me on this, but imo it just too expensive unit for the impact it can do. Dmg is meh (with nova reactor its ok..) and they totally depend on use of Nova reactor which has 2 turn cd and you lose hp on the use. They are good on tanking stuff with the shield, but I don't see them giving as big impact as many other same tier units in the game.
Underrated:
- Admech, Kataphron Destroyers. I quite rarely see anyone going this unit, but it hits really hard and can virtually fight against anything.
- AM, Wyrdvane Psyckers. Their Misfortune debuff +50% dmg taken on enemy is propably the most underrated ability in the whole game. Doesn't matter how tanky the enemy is, it just go down easily with this.
- CSM, Chaos Spawns. My favorite tier 1 unit. They have high mobility, hp pool and dmg input against low tier infantries. You can scout, use them as meatshield and bully enemy infantries with them easily.
- Aeldari, Fire Dragons. Squishy and short range, but has 1 shot potential with their assault meltaguns against low-mid tier vehicles, which can really turn the tables in a fight.
- Necrons, Canoptek Wraiths. They have high mobility, ignore zone control and move through enemy units. It's really pain in the ass play against these. They can just so easily bully your squishy unit, roam over the map and get away without punishment for doing so.
- SM, Vindicator. They are decent against infantries and vehicles, especially against units with ranged damage reduction trait. Also high armor and decent mobility with Siege Shield researched.
- Tau, Sky Ray Gunship. With Target Aquire ability can shoot from 4 range and virtually take down anything. 5 turn cd on rockets may seems too long, but if you have multiple Sky Rays in your roster, you will make enemy flee after couple vehicles take down in one turn. And if they don't flee, you can retriet yourself from safe distance to wait for another rocket salvo geting ready to launch.
- Tyranids, Zoanthropes. They hit hard on high armor targets and can take some punch too with 50% invulnerable dmg reduction. Has same effect as Sky Rays. You can take down couple big high armor units in 1 turn, and see enemy flee after that. Their impact is worth what they cost.
Devastators are definitely not overrated. If anything, they are very underrated. Most people avoid them because of perceived squishiness but they are not any less squishier than let's say Sororitas' Retributors who are also shorter ranged, yet everyone says "get Retributors ASAP" even though they are very similar to the Devastators... Does not compute.... If you want quality ranged 3 anti-armor damage, at tier 3 you have nothing else. Even the Predator at T4 sacrifices a lot of firepower in order to give you tankiness. Depending on how good you are at the tactical side of the game, you may be throwing a lot of firepower to the garbage bin by not making Devastators. Devastators benefit a lot from synergies with other units like healers and transports while Predators can be more independent, for sure, but if you can get it right, they are far more powerful than any other ranged anti-armor option until you get Centurions and heavy vehicles.
As for Rogal Dorn, if anything, i am finding that i keep prefering it to the Leman Rus. Its only downside, aside from the double cost, is the lack of dozer blade. Other than that it can scale far better in the end game than the Leman both offensively and defensively. Yes technically it doesn't have 2X the hp and 2X the damage, but IT IS CLOSE TO THAT, and has +2 morale, and most importantly, it multiplies the effect of the buffs. If you have 2 Lemans instead of 1 Rogal, you need double the techpriests and double the tank commanders. Rogal Dorn and later Baneblade allow you to concentrate more tanky goodness into a single hex, and therefore you can concentrate your buffs and experience points more. In fact, in many games i found that i don't need to go to Baneblade since i have already won the game with Rogal Dorn most of the time and it is just cleanup from there.
As for Hellbrute, again, i disagree. First of all they are not similar units. Hellbrute is a frontline walker and like the SM Dreadnought, it is meant to fight mid-game enemies up close and personal. Maulerfiend is like Haruspex, a siege engine, essentially. A living battering ram. Like Haruspex, it is bad vs infantry (actually it is worse than Haruspex) due to its 33% accuracy and low number of attacks. It just is tankier than Hellbrute due to Daemon trait and can help shield your allies from melee attackers (Hellbrute gets also 33% melee damage reduction but only for itself). Hellbrute on the other hand is more balanced and it can do damage to both infantry and vehicles well. The crazed trait always gives him an attack bonus no matter what, either for the melee weapon or the ranged one. Hellbrute is more cost-effective (costs 60 instead of 80) for the damage it provides and it is more universal in his role. Maulerfiend is useful mostly for attacking fortifications/cities in the mid game and/or if you are facing a melee heavy army.
Riptide is also not overrated. Yes many will disagree with you, including myself. It is far tankier than all units T8 or prior and its damage is more than respectable and you can always just give it +2 accuracy buffs since it has 2 support system slots.
GET THE INQUISITOR, QUICK! WE'VE GOT A FILTHY SABOTEUR AND POSSIBLY A HERETIC TRYING TO STIR UP TROUBLE!
;)
While you are correct that building a separate building for them is an obstacle - and they are research intensive - I have to agree with TemplarGR's and Tsorig. Wyrdvanes are just so incredibly useful ... and it's not like the building is doing nothing - it does harvest resources AND you can train psyksers at the same time as your infantry (assuming that you do train infantry).
They are not too expensive, whether in terms of research or of construction time. It is a T5 research, so of average cost, and while all T5 research items could be worthwhile, none of those are a must-have at that tier. As for buildings, you just need 1 or 2 covens (though i eventually build 3) to satisfy your needs, it is not like a Psyker takes a lot of production points to make, even 1 coven will have one out every 5 turns (without any buffs included), and since this coven does not produce anything else, it is all you need at the start.
Reasoning: DD are worthless in combat, so all they provide is a 1/6 damage reduction aura, and only for half of the Chaos units (none if you're using Mark of Tzeentch). A maybe 1/6 DR trait is not worth them taking up a hex on the battlefield, a research pick, and the resource cost + time to produce them. All of those things would be better spent elsewhere.
You can't even use them as fodder or you lose the aura, and they're more expensive than cultists anyway. With the nerf, they cut the ability by half, but only cut the cost by 25%. In my opinion cutting a 33% DR trait down to 17% is cutting the unit's strategic value by more than half, so the cost reduction wasn't enough to balance it out. But to be honest, making them cost 10 food, no ore, and 1 food upkeep still probably wouldn't even be enough to make me branch out my research enough to pick them up as a fodder unit.
I wouldn't have called them overrated. But now that people in this thread are calling them underrated, I'm going to call them overrated to balance it out.
But I sort of disagree that squishiness is a downside to them.... I mean the whole Tyranid army is already squishy to anything it goes up against within the same tier, so in a way the Lictors aren't any worse than the other options. They solve the problem of the Tyranids lacking good tanks by saying, "screw trying to tank damage, just don't get hit at all".
Yeah, I know. The reason it's useless with Tzeentch is because 0.17 * 0.17 = 0.03. So giving the DD bonus to a unit with Feel No Pain only gives a 3% damage reduction.
Edit: Actually.... I think the DD would be a bit better if they instead provided a +17% feel no pain damage reduction (instead of the min 17% invuln DR), because then you could add it to Mark of Tzeentch to get up to a total 33% feel no pain.
Not only would that make them somewhat more viable, the bonus would stack (multiplicatively) with Noctilith Crowns, so neither unit would be stepping on each others' toes.
Edit 2: Actually, the way I've been calculating different-type damage reduction might be wrong. I think it's supposed to be damage * 1/DR1 * 1/DR2, which means that having another 17% DR would provide about 14% additional DR, not 3%. So it's not quite useless on units with the Mark. It is of course still overridden by the Noctilith.
This is not correct. Squishiness is the biggest downside for any late game unit. Tankiness is the biggest upside any unit could have in the late game. Firepower is second. Mobility third. Reason for this, is that during the later stages of the game, every opponent has lots of units, has lots of production capacity and economy, has advanced in technology, and has lots of firepower available. That means that any unit that can't resist being hit will be eliminated almost immediately, dropping morale and offering exp to the enemy, before it ever affects the battlefield. The main reason we aren't using T1-T4 units in the late game is because they are squishy, not because they lack firepower or mobility.
Lictors at least have the advantage of avoiding overwatch, so they get to do one melee attack before they are done. But that is hardly any consolation because their attacks are not that powerful and of course they can't target air units or reach a well positioned backline. But their squishiness means that they are very easy to kill during the next turn after they attack, and that's a lot of biomass to lose for a single Lictor melee attack. And while Tyranids under Synapse aren't affected by morale hits, they still do give tons of exp and morale boost to the enemy.
The main reason Lictors suck is their 120 biomass cost, which is beyond absurd and was made by a stupid balancing decision to avoid early Lictor spam in the overrated tiny discord pvp scene. Lictors at 80 biomass were alright, a relatively cheap late game infantry, but at 120 they have a hefty cost you can't just lose willy nilly that easily. With that amount of biomass you could get a much better Tyrannofex and call it a day.
PS: Also Tyrannids aren't that squishy in general. Their monsters are tanky enough for the cost and damage, it is only their infantry that tends to be squishy.
I agree about the price of Lictors being too high, that's partly why I sort of agree they're overrated, but I didn't mention it.
I'm curious which Tyranids you consider to be tanky. In my experience, every Tyranid monster goes down to same tier (or lower!) damage dealers faster than their army can take down enemy tanks. Part of that is taking hits from overwatch, which can sometimes be mitigated, but usually not or not enough.
17% reduction from a different source is 17% damage reduction.