Space Marines' Predator tank is situational at best, and overrated by the community

[TemplarGR]

Whenever someone wants to tell us that he is bad at Gladius, he is mentioning that he makes Predators a lot when playing Space Marines. He may even go as far as saying that Vindicators or Devastator Marines are bad and/or need a rework (i have seen threads, lol), and that is when you really know he doesn't know what he is talking about. The opposite is true, the more you analyze the Space Marine roster, the more you realize Predators are a mediocre unit and only really useful situationally under niche circumstances. They are not terrible, just overshadowed by many other options, especially at that price and tier. I am willing to bet the Predator is one of the main reasons people think Space Marines are weak, they keep spamming them for no reason... Let me explain.

Predators are available at T4. At first, they only have a single Twin Linked Lascannon, that is only good vs single modelled armored units at range 3. If used in pairs adjacent to each other they gain a +33% damage vs vehicles monsters and fortifications. They have moderate mobility and tankiness for a mid game unit. They are terrible vs infantry and high hp but low armor units, like Chaos Spawns for instance. Just terrible.

So, why are they bad? Simple. In the mid game you get other options that can be better at hitting those targets that Predators are good for.

At T3 you get Devastator Marines, who have 3 Lascannons when they are at full health, not just one. So 3 times the firepower. That's a 200% damage increase, if you need a percentage. Yes the Devastator's Lascannon isn't Twin Linked, so it has 2 accuracy less, BUT you can also use Devastator Doctrine and give them that +2 accuracy as well, at a small cost of 40 influence for 10 turns for all Devastator units. Yes Devastators lose half of their accuracy if they have moved that turn, so they deal half their potential damage, but that half still is 50% more than what a Predator will deal (and it remains better even if the Predator has the adjacency bonus). And you can research the Signum ability at T6 to allow Devastators to ignore the accuracy penalty for movement once every 5 turns. Since Devastators are range 3, you don't need to move them that often to find targets, so Signum can definitely aleviate much of the accuracy penalties.

The only real downside of the Devastators, is that they lose lascannons when they lose hp, and are easy to kill. But they are available one tier earlier, and if supported by transports and apothecaries you can really have a better anti-armor unit in them as long as you keep your distance from threats. If you need anti-armor with Space Marines, use Devastators, not Predators.

It gets worse when you compare them with 3 other units, Hunters, Dreadnoughts and Vindicators.

For Hunters, see my other thread:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/489630/discussions/0/4038104984902103061/

Dreadnoughts are a T5 unit, and cost the same as Predators. They have similar hp, armor, and morale stats, but they lose 1 movement. Being walkers, they are more mobile in rough terrain until Predators get the dozer blade upgrade. But the thing that makes them much better, is that they are far greater in terms of damage to both armored targets and to infantry. Even better if you are also using Hammer of Wrath. Their overwatch damage is mediocre but their attacks especially at range 1 are lethal. They are much better vs armored targets at range 1 than the Predators, no comparison, and they can deal with heavy infantry better than the Predators too, even if they have additional bolters. So why not make Dreadnoughts instead of Predators?

For Vindicators, Vindicators cost the same price and are available at T6. Initially they have the same hit points and armor, BUT they have a far better main weapon that is great both vs infantry and vehicles and fortifications. Their adjacency bonus is giving them total ranged damage reduction, so they can hit those pesky infantry in cover and other units with traits like shrouded better. Vs vehicles they deal similar damage to the Predator (12 damage instead of 8, with a little lower accuracy, and slightly better armor penetration), vs infantry, especially late game armored infantry, there is no comparison, really, bolters or not. And at T8 when you hope to get bolters for the Predator, you can research Siege Shield instead, to give better movement in rough terrain AND a +2 armor, so it becomes tankier than the Predator as well. Only downside the 2 range, but Predators are 2 range to use the bolters anyway... So why make Predators instead of Vindicators?

Honestly the niche of the Predators is really small. Predators' anti-armor niche is literally if you need to assault a city or other fortification early in the game, since they can tank overwatch much better than Devastator Marines without losing attacking strength, and can fire every turn at full accuracy when on the move. And they can attack at range 3 so they have a range advantage over the Dreadnought but at a vastly lower damage vs ground targets. They can also be useful if your infantry building queue is flooded with various types of infantry and you can't make Devastators fast enough. Other than that, not worth it. Honestly you are better off without them in most games.

In fact, since i have even seen threads demanding the rework of Devastator Marines "because Predators are better" (i sh1t you not), i think the opposite would have been true, if Predators got reworked and lost the Lascannon for a (Twin Linked) Autocannon, which is mentioned in the compedium's description of the unit even.... That would give them a better niche in the mid game, being a more balanced medium battle tank vs all targets instead of dedicated anti-fortification/anti-vehicle. Or they could rename the current Predator as Lascannon Predator and add another Autocannon variant. I don't believe it will happen though.

TL:DR: If you are using Predator tanks a lot, you are bad and you should feel bad (this part is a joke).

[Jey]

Originally posted by just.dont.do.it:

+2 acc is ~18% extra damage, not 25.

No.
+2 accuracy is +2/12, which is roughly 17 points of percentage.

But that's the thing with percentage, adding 17 points of percentage does not mean adding 17%.

Predators have 8 base accuracy. Adding 2 means they have 10.
Going from 8 to 10 accuracy is a 25% increase.

[just.dont.do.it]

Or you could've just started with 8 base damage and 8 base acc instead of writing two posts.
(I should've done it as well)

Then you'd arrive at 8 * 1.33 * 0.83 vs 8 * 3 * 0.33
Or 8.8312 vs 7.92
Which is 11.5% increase, and not 16 like you claimed.
Granted, my math was wrong too.

[Noodlesocks]

If youa giv them the shootupgrade they do shto very good! alyways go with the guns

[Howell-Barrex Soldier Ja'kala]

Honestly don't think i have ever built a predator in this game it is always spam land speeders until i unlock dreadnoughts.

[Zbychu]

honesty discussions like this are great in my opinion both sites have right points and simply show great insight on units there is a lot of stuff that i haven't even think of
i would oversimplify by just saying that devastors are great for defence and glass cannon damage which makes them great for specialist army while the predator is much more reliable and as such more useful for typical battle

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Jey:

Originally posted by just.dont.do.it:

They're tied in damage if you utilize Killshot (100% + 33% + 16% due to +2 acc = 149% of 1 lascannon damage vs 150%.

That's not how maths work.
It's 1.33 * 1.25 (which is about 1.66) VS 1.5.
Meaning two adjacent predators deal more damage than two devastators that moved on vehicles/monstrous creatures.fortifications.

The thing you keep treating like air is that devastators die like flies.

Maybe the Predator will only deal half the damage of your devastators, but he will shoot several times, whereas the devastators will shoot once, then die, then destroy your morale, then allow your whole army to get destroyed in a snowball effect.

But yeah, I know "It's fine, Devastators don't die because magic". I got it.

This is wrong.

First of all, let's take accuracy difference out of the picture: Predator is twin linked and Devastators use Devastator Doctrine for a pitiful amount of influence so it is no obstacle. So both have 10 accuracy. No reason to include it in the calculation since it is the same.

Second, Devastators have 3 guns, Predator has 1. It is very simple, no? Basic math you learned when you were 2-3 years old.

Now, the heavy trait means that unless Devastators use signum, if they have moved, they get half their normal accuracy. This is simply put a -50% damage debuff, essentially.

What is half of 3? It is 1.5. And 1.5 is +50% of 1. Therefore, Devastators deal 50% more damage than a Predator, IF they have moved.

The adjacency bonus of a Predator gives +33%. That's fine. That means that each Predator next to another, deals 1.33 worth of lascannon damage. But 1.33 is still lower than 1.5 last time i checked, unless math has changed in your country.....

Implying that the Predator always gets the adjacency bonus, but treating the Devastators like they never benefit from Devastator doctrine, is dishonest at best.

Reality is, that Devastators should do MORE DAMAGE even when having moved. And they don't need no adjacency bonus.

And Devastators don't have to move each turn. It is not like the map has 3-5 trillion hexes and an opponent can keep falling back forever. In practice you don't move that often. And you have signum even if you do.

So at least 50% of the time, Devastators should do triple damage. That is +200%. The rest of the time, they should still do a little more damage, around 10% to 50%, depending on if adjacency bonus applies or not. Both when moved and when not moved, they deal more damage, assuming a player spends 4 influence per turn for the doctrine.

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Howell-Barrex Soldier Ja'kala:

Honestly don't think i have ever built a predator in this game it is always spam land speeders until i unlock dreadnoughts.

This is correct. Land speeders are immensely better than Predators. In fact, if your tactic is to build a unit early and then buff it with tech, Land Speeders are vastly better for the role. And they get multi-melta a whole tier earlier (and they are 2 tiers earlier as a unit too....) Yes they are a little squishier, but they are infinitely more mobile than the Predator, can deal with infantry at the start when they matter more, and at T7 can deal some really nasty damage to armor with multi meltas.

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Zbychu:

honesty discussions like this are great in my opinion both sites have right points and simply show great insight on units there is a lot of stuff that i haven't even think of
i would oversimplify by just saying that devastors are great for defence and glass cannon damage which makes them great for specialist army while the predator is much more reliable and as such more useful for typical battle

No, honestly, only my side has the correct points, the other "side" is refusing to accept the data or simply put claim that circumstanses are always against Devastators.

As for your oversimplification, it is wrong.

It is actually the opposite. The Predator is the specialist/niche choice that most of the time makes no sense and is only useful under rare circumstances. Devastators are ALWAYS useful.

The reason being, that Predator lacks damage. Yes, it lacks damage, it is an irrelevant unit. Prior to additional bolters, its total damage output is a joke. Assuming the enemy unit has 6 armor or less, you do what, 83% of 8 = 6.64 damage on it? If it is a tank, and has let's say 40 hit points, how many ages will it take to kill it? You think the opponent won't have time to save it? Even with adjacency bonus, that is less than 9 damage, and that is, again, assuming no higher than 6 armor and of course no other resistances. Vs infantry, it is far less because of the max damage cap.

It is far better to use a Dreadnought if you want a vehicle to attack vehicles/fortifications. In melee there is no comparison in damage, the Dreadnought has both a powerfist and a multi-melta. The powerfist has 9 damage, 3 attacks, and 6 armor penetration at 50% accuracy, so this is 13.5 damage with similar penetration to the lascannon. So just with the fist alone, the Dreadnought deals double damage, or +33% if the Predator has adjacency bonus. And the multi-melta has higher armor penetration at 8 (10 at range 1) and deals 6 damage with 67% accuracy therefore 4 damage. I won't calculate the Stormbolter, or the Hammer of Wrath, no need. Just the 2 weapons i mentioned alone, are an added 17.5 damage, and with equal or higher armor penetration to the Predator.

So again, why make a Predator? Want a generalist unit to spam that is good vs everything? Make Dreadnoughts. Predator is literally a n00btrap, both the unit 2 tiers earlier (Land Speeder) and the one a tier afterwards (Dreadnought) are better choices. And the Vindicator comes 2 tiers before the coveted additional bolters tech....

[dexgattaca]

Dreadnoughts are short range and slow.

Land Speeders are fragile.

Predators are able to apply consistant anti-vehicle firepower while staying alive. That's basically their whole role until T7. That really matters if you are facing a human who knows what to target and what to run from or an AI that is coming at you with overwhelming force.

Nobody is saying those other units or Devastators suck or even poor choices. They just don't do what a Predator does and that specific role really matters.

[Jey]

Originally posted by dexgattaca:

Nobody is saying [...] Devastators suck

I definitely am.

[dexgattaca]

Originally posted by Jey:

Originally posted by dexgattaca:

Nobody is saying [...] Devastators suck

I definitely am.

As ever, I stand corrected.

[Devian]

What's the aim of this topic, already ? Any units have its own utility.
And each player have the choice to use them or not.

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Devian:

What's the aim of this topic, already ? Any units have its own utility.
And each player have the choice to use them or not.

The topic is, discussion. That's what forums are about, discussing things.

And the reason i made this thread is because over the years i have seen many people talk about the Predator a lot, many even use it as their main unit. And the same people tend to claim that Space Marines are weak, imagine my shock....

I have seen threads suggesting to the devs that Devastators are useless and should be changed because "Predators are better and Devastators serve no purpose". Here is one:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/489630/discussions/8/4027968871053116896/

Read it for laughs to realize how bad his grasp of the game is. And i have seen many other threads like this.

Sadly, with the discord community being a small tiny group of bad players who suck at this game and just play with each other re-inforcing their bad beliefs, there is no one around to open the eyes of the community to blatant mistakes like this. So discussions like these needs to happen to open their eyes to have badly they play the game.

Perhaps then we will be getting less crappy suggestions and less "Space Marines are bad cause i am mainly using an expensive unit that doesn't do damage and only does mediocre damage at Tier 8" threads....

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by dexgattaca:

Dreadnoughts are short range and slow.

Land Speeders are fragile.

Predators are able to apply consistant anti-vehicle firepower while staying alive. That's basically their whole role until T7. That really matters if you are facing a human who knows what to target and what to run from or an AI that is coming at you with overwhelming force.

Nobody is saying those other units or Devastators suck or even poor choices. They just don't do what a Predator does and that specific role really matters.

You know, it is hard to take you seriously when you repeat false information and refuse to acknowledge arguments.... For example Predators don't get additional bolters at T7, they get them at T8. That's 4 tiers after their own research. That's 2 tiers after Vindicators. 3 Tiers after Dreadnoughts. 1 Tier after Terminators. Compare the stats of Dreadnoughts, Vindicators, and Terminators, to Predators, there is no comparison even WITH the additional bolters, they still suck.

"Applying constant anti-vehicle power at range 3 until tier 8" is a niche need. That's what i said in the title of this thread, they are situational. You don't need that role until you have other roles covered. For example what are you going to do if you encounter infantry with Predators prior to T8? Defeat them with harsh language? You need other units to fight the main battle until T8. Infantry, Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts... Yet what happens when those units can also deal with vehicles prior to T8, and you also get better units in general by then? You get a SITUATIONAL unit, not worth being used.

Dreadnoughts are slow and range 1/2, but they are far more powerful and they are universal units. That means they can kill everything. You get them at tier 5, that means they are going to be useful for 3 more whole research tiers. If you need a main unit, Dreadnoughts can be that at tier 5. Predators can't. Dreadnoughts are doing more damage than Predators even with additional bolters at T8.

Land Speeders are fragile, but not by much. Just 32hp instead of 36, and 6 armor instead of 8. That is a significant difference but not prohibitive. Until the very later stages of the game Land Speeders won't get one-shoted, and when they begin to be, Predators are one shoted as well. On the other hand, Land Speeders are available at Tier 2 instead of 4, and they get the multi-melta upgrade at Tier 7 instead of 8, that means they are available in both forms faster. They are way more mobile and can even go over water. And their damage is better all around, they get the 2 bolters by default so they kill infantry better by default, and at T7 they get 2 multi-meltas that are better than 1 lascannon vs vehicles. So they basically always are better than the Predator offensively. If you need tankiness at tiers 5 and 6, get a Dreadnought or Vindicator instead.

As for the Devastators, many people have claimed they suck in the past. Perhaps not you, but others have. That's why i made this thread, to make people realize the mistake.

[dexgattaca]

Thanks Templar,

Sure you can make Terminator, but you'll already have a horde of Predators by T8; when you'll only have a few Terminators.

Yes, Dreadnoughts are doing great damage. They need to get there though.

Vindicators are fine and you should make them. You'll need something to kill tanks/MCs before that though.

You are free to try to replace Predators with Land Speeders.

Remember that Devastators are also "basically always are better than the Predator offensively".