Either i'm playing the game wrong or it's incredibly hard

[RustyCr0w☠]

I'm totally at a loss here. I cannot work out what I'm doing wrong. I'm playing the Introduction but seemingly the intro to this game, as the developers intended, is to be confused and constantly losing.

I'm starting with Space marines and no matter what I do, I can't even get a foothold on the map. If I venture out and explore, I draw the attention of too many neutral mobs. Eventually the Kastelan Robots get involved and I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥. Early on nothing I have can touch them, they just run around wiping out my entire army. If I turtle early and build my forces, it still doesn't seem to matter. As soon as I meet another faction I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥. My units seem to do very little damage while the enemies are cutting me down in a couple of turns. As soon as I take a single outpost with a bunch of units, a couple of enemy units swoop in and I'm done. I can't hold anything.

The Necrons are also completely out of balance for me. Basic warriors take turn after turn to kill but cut my tactical Marines down in a couple of turns. The Heavy Destroyers wipe out my Devastators in a couple of turns but barely take any damage. All the units heal at the end of every turn. Throw a Lord in there and it's impossiible. He takes so much damage and even if I gang up on him, everything is dead before he's even lost half health. My captain does about 5 damage to him, whereas he's doing almost double to my captain. Oh and a couple of Destroyers wiped out my Dreadnought in a few salvos like it was nothing. I cannot see a way to win.

The economy is so confusing. I'm constantly building things to get more requisitions but I never seem to have enough. Everything takes so long to build so as i'm waiting 9 turns for a tank (despite having 2 Orbitals) my army gets wiped. If I research better units I can't expand fast enough to build what I need to maintain a decent army. If I research expansion and doctrines I end up with weak units as the enemy is pounding me with heavy vehicles.

I know that's a lot but I want to like this game. I just have no clue whatsoever where to go from here.

[Grotzel]

Space Marines are boring! :) Try Orks!
My subjective prejudices aside (and Necrons or ... sigh ... boring Space Marines would be better for a new player anyway) ... you probably just need to wrap your head around some basic concepts. You can also give yourself an ally by putting an AI on your team when setting up the game (you can ignore the introduction, it's just a regular game on easy settings). AI team mates will try to focus on points you put a signal on (a button on the icon bar on the upper right).

Hover over every element in the interface, including the unit window - the tooltips should give you a better understanding of the game and may help to answer several questions.
Perhaps re-read the tutorial messages (Question mark codex in the upper right has them AND a ton of other useful information) - easy to miss stuff.
Jey has posted a pretty useful FAQ https://steamcommunity.com/app/489630/discussions/0/4615641262429950233/
There are also guides about how to handle neutral creatures.

A few quick points:
Neutrals ARE dangerous ... but manageable. They guard areas and usually won't pursue you very far. Neutrals form tribes (usually of neutrals of the same type) and will attack any nearby player unit when they have been enraged. ALWAYS expect that a larger area has at least some guards roaming around. If you see an artefact there are also enslavers around. Do NOT attack enslavers if you can't finish them off in one or two turns.
Frag grenades are extremely efficient in dispatching weaker neutrals like kroot hounds - and generally weaker infantry units with many models.

Combat tips:
Cover - such as outposts, city tiles, ruins and forests are very important because they reduce incoming ranged attacks. Melee ignores cover.

Units often have more than one weapon which which they will attack. Pay attention to the various effects and ranges listed in the weapon tooltip ... e.g. a unit may cause far less damage if it can only use one weapon due to range ... or because its melee attack can't harm a flying unit. Note that overwatch attacks are usually only made with ranged weapons.
Each model in a unit will deal damage ... so a wounded unit that has lost models is less dangerous - also important for grenades.

ALWAYS try to retreat and heal your units if the situation is too dangerous. Healing is most effective on city tiles ... and a little improved on outposts, too.

Thinking of outposts: don't forget to buy items from the trader encampment with your heroes. Armour and weapons make them far more formidable. If you play Orks, buying items is especially easy - as you gain influence simply by fighting stuff (did I mention that Orks are great?).

Economy tips:
As Space Marine, don't forget to drop ugly fortresses of redemption next to outposts. That way you get the percentage bonus from them for your city (usually only available when you claim the outpost with a city) instead of only the flat bonus.
Note that the bonus of regular tiles affects EVERY building you build on that tile that can harvest that resource.

Loyalty is less important for Space Marines (as the loyalty penalty for multiple cities doesn't bother them), but you should still learn what it does. Positive loyalty speeds up production /resource production (percentage based, so less important for smaller numbers), negative loyalty does the opposite.

The gear symbol bonus - production resource - will speed up the production of any production building placed there (including that builds buildings) but is worthless for pure resource harvesting buildings.
If you think your build times are too long - build more unit production buildings of the same type (when you can get one, on a gear bonus tile).

Population is extremely important as every building needs one - unless you deactivate it. More space for free population => faster population growth.

Essential tip:
Too Many Voices Mod. Glorious.

[RustyCr0w☠]

Originally posted by Grotzel:

Space Marines are boring! :) Try Orks!
My subjective prejudices aside (and Necrons or ... sigh ... boring Space Marines would be better for a new player anyway) ... you probably just need to wrap your head around some basic concepts. You can also give yourself an ally by putting an AI on your team when setting up the game (you can ignore the introduction, it's just a regular game on easy settings). AI team mates will try to focus on points you put a signal on (a button on the icon bar on the upper right).

Hover over every element in the interface, including the unit window - the tooltips should give you a better understanding of the game and may help to answer several questions.
Perhaps re-read the tutorial messages (Question mark codex in the upper right has them AND a ton of other useful information) - easy to miss stuff.
Jey has posted a pretty useful FAQ https://steamcommunity.com/app/489630/discussions/0/4615641262429950233/
There are also guides about how to handle neutral creatures.

A few quick points:
Neutrals ARE dangerous ... but manageable. They guard areas and usually won't pursue you very far. Neutrals form tribes (usually of neutrals of the same type) and will attack any nearby player unit when they have been enraged. ALWAYS expect that a larger area has at least some guards roaming around. If you see an artefact there are also enslavers around. Do NOT attack enslavers if you can't finish them off in one or two turns.
Frag grenades are extremely efficient in dispatching weaker neutrals like kroot hounds - and generally weaker infantry units with many models.

Combat tips:
Cover - such as outposts, city tiles, ruins and forests are very important because they reduce incoming ranged attacks. Melee ignores cover.

Units often have more than one weapon which which they will attack. Pay attention to the various effects and ranges listed in the weapon tooltip ... e.g. a unit may cause far less damage if it can only use one weapon due to range ... or because its melee attack can't harm a flying unit. Note that overwatch attacks are usually only made with ranged weapons.
Each model in a unit will deal damage ... so a wounded unit that has lost models is less dangerous - also important for grenades.

ALWAYS try to retreat and heal your units if the situation is too dangerous. Healing is most effective on city tiles ... and a little improved on outposts, too.

Thinking of outposts: don't forget to buy items from the trader encampment with your heroes. Armour and weapons make them far more formidable. If you play Orks, buying items is especially easy - as you gain influence simply by fighting stuff (did I mention that Orks are great?).

Economy tips:
As Space Marine, don't forget to drop ugly fortresses of redemption next to outposts. That way you get the percentage bonus from them for your city (usually only available when you claim the outpost with a city) instead of only the flat bonus.
Note that the bonus of regular tiles affects EVERY building you build on that tile that can harvest that resource.

Loyalty is less important for Space Marines (as the loyalty penalty for multiple cities doesn't bother them), but you should still learn what it does. Positive loyalty speeds up production /resource production (percentage based, so less important for smaller numbers), negative loyalty does the opposite.

The gear symbol bonus - production resource - will speed up the production of any production building placed there (including that builds buildings) but is worthless for pure resource harvesting buildings.
If you think your build times are too long - build more unit production buildings of the same type (when you can get one, on a gear bonus tile).

Population is extremely important as every building needs one - unless you deactivate it. More space for free population => faster population growth.

Essential tip:
Too Many Voices Mod. Glorious.

Thanks for this, super helpful. I guessed the Intro was a basic game on Easy but even still, it's a terrible introduction to the game lol. Tells you the bare basics then is happy to let you be confused a lose for hours.

I'll set up a standard game with an ally AI so at least I won't be alone. I'll check the use of cover more too. I don't think I've seen those production bonus tiles yet, I'll keep an eye out for them. And the Loyalty thing is also made out to be a bigger issue than it really is it seems. I also think the unit descriptions are crap and it's not clear what's effective against what.

I do try to retreat when I can but Necrons are bastards. My Marines try to escape and they just get chased down and killed anyway.

[Grotzel]

The problem is that the game throws a ton of information at you at once ... very easy to overlook stuff. The tutorial messages actually cover a lot of crucial information ... but admittedly not all ... not ideally in some cases ( though it DOES point your way to the tooltips and the Codex). But yes, it does leave you out in the wilderness to get eaten if you are not careful (although it DOES warn you about the wilderness, too).

The gear bonus is relatively rare (I think it exists only next to one type of outposts)- it can be nice, but multiple production buildings work even better.

Concerning fleeing ... yes, you can't always escape, especially if the enemy is faster. You could try to sacrifice one unit to let the others flee. But that's situational. However, if you manage to get to your city or (for lesser enemies) fortresses, their guns might save you (AND you can heal there or put wounded units inside).

The thing with Necrons is that you need to focus fire individuals because otherwise they'll just heal or retreat if you spread the damage too much (often not a bad idea against other enemies, too) . Dead enemies can't fight back - and it might hurt their morale which makes them more vulnerable and lessens their damage (...until they kill enough of your units to get morale back up - more important units -especially heroes - have a larger effect on morale).

Necrons also typically have ranged weapons which means cover will help a lot against them. Some of them - their basic warriors for example - have rapid fire like your standard marines ... which means that they do double damage up close.

In fights it is generally a good idea to keep your troops together and in a good position. You don't always NEED to attack directly ... it might be a good idea to rely on overwatch shots instead of advancing on them and getting hit by THEIR overwatch.
Note that units with infiltrate - such as kroot hounds - ignore overwatch ... but unless you have the unit dlc that gives them flayed ones, the Necrons should not have those.

You can use sturdy units such as the captain hero - especially with armour items - to tank enemy overwatch fire relatively safely before moving in closer for the kill. Assault Space Marines - themselves quite tanky - can also pretty efficiently kill enemies in cover with their melee attacks (their own overwatch is pitiful, however). As a little sidenote, the extra damage ability for their melee attack that you can research only triggers if you jump with them.

Finally, the tutorial message about tough neutrals like Enslavers and Kastellan Robots isn't kidding ... some monsters should NOT be tackled by your starting units, especially if there are many of them.

Units with high armour like Kastellans should be engaged in superior numbers and ideally with someone with good armour penetration.

Regarding unhelpful text ... well, you need to take care with pure flavour text - that can indeed be pretty misleading. Pretty much EVERY unit and weapon sounds extremely deadly ... but that's Warhammer 40k. ;) It generally tends to describe the general use of a unit (e.g. if it is anti vehicle or a scout) decently ... but it is not really reliable. Its stats, the abilities, traits and the weapons are the important information.

[TemplarGR]

Neutrals can be a pain for new players indeed. They are more manageable when you become more experienced in the game. When you are advanced, neutrals have no hope, i routinely clear them easily these days, even Enslavers don't phase me anymore (just remember Enslavers can only enslave units with 8 morale or less (and it has a 3 turn cooldown), so use this to your advantage, approach with higher level units (they gain +10% morale per level) or with more base morale).

Enslavers can be really susceptible to Scouts due to their range and damage if you have their DLC, otherwise, you can either wait to gather some experience for your Marine units before attacking them, or wait for Hunters/Predators/Dreadnoughts that can make short work of them and unless suffering morale damage they are not susceptible to enslavement even at level 1.

Kastelan Robots are trickier. Just remember Kastelan Robots do mediocre damage vs highly armored units, and at range 2 they can't use their flamer (this means that when approaching them, always have the first unit to activate their overwatch stand 2 tiles from them, so they don't use the flamer, ideally in cover). Devastator Marines, Predators, or Dreadnoughts, can deal with them. Dreadnoughts are best. For other infantry, Assault Marines are better due to their melee damage avoiding some of their protection and their damage return. Try to always use forests/ruins/outpost/city tiles for your infantry when attacking Kastelans, to be more protected. Sadly, Kastelans are better fought using melee units with high armor penetration, and of those Space Marines only have the Dreadnought and later the Terminator infantry. You could also use the Captain hero since he is very tanky and has a decent melee weapon, that you can even boost with an ability, and with equipping some items.

The other pesky neutral is an Umbra. This is by far the worst neutral to face mainly due to how rare are the units that can be effective against it at the earlier parts of the game. It is flying, it has ranged damage protection (and since it is flying, the only melee weapons that can hit it are other air units and you won't have those any time soon, or at all in the case of Space Marines). It has decent armor. And deals a great amount of melee damage. It also has an aura of fear and hammer of wrath, no biggy..... So, what to do? Mostly avoid it if you can. It is flying, meaning it can't steal outposts or artifacts from you. It can attack Fortresses of Redemption but Fortresses can kill it and can withstand its attacks. If you have to kill it, you need armor piercing ranged weapons, or even better, meltas and flamers, which deal double damage on Umbras. Again, Devastator Marines, Predators, Hunters, and Dreadnoughts, are your best bet. You could also use Land Speeders with the Multi-melta upgrade, or air units of your own later. In the late game Vindicators, Land Raiders if you have them, Terminators, and Devastator Centurions, can easily destroy it.

The rest of the neutrals are more manageable. Kroothounds ignore overwatch, are very fast, and melee attack so cover doesn't matter to them. If Kroothounds want to damage some of your hp, they will. And they are prone to escaping if you don't finish them fast. BUT they are very squishy since they have low hp and no armor, only a buff in ranged damage reduction when in forests (a total of 50%). Try to not let them get inside forests, or even better use melee weapons. Ideally you need weapons with a high number of attacks, so even Tactical Marines can kill them from range 1.

Vespid Stingwings are similarly annoying, but they gain the bonus ranged damage reduction in ruins instead of forests, and have 6 armor too. So it can take ages for your Tactical Marines to kill them while inside Imperial ruins, while Stingwings use their 4 armor penetration rifle against them. Use melee units preferably against them in such a case. Assault Marines were born for situations like this. Dreadnoughts and Terminators too.

Neophyte Hybrids are more manageable. Every second turn they activate shrouded, so they get a +33% ranged damage protection, on top of any cover (noticing a pattern here? most neutrals are better cleared with melee weapons). They don't have too much armor and hp though, and their damage is not very lethal, although they do gain +2 accuracy for their overwatch. Try to use melee weapons against them, units that avoid overwatch (infiltrate trait) or even better, melee units with infiltrate (sadly Space Marines don't have those although you can equip the Captain hero with an overwatch denying item). Although Neophytes are not strong enough to go out of your way to make special units/heroes just for them, i am just mentioning it for educational purposes. They are easy to kill anyway.

Poxwalkers are a new annoying neutral you may get if you have the latest unit pack. They have a 83% life steal, and tons of models. Unless you have a unit with lots of attacks and/or blast weapons, they need concentrated fire to kill. Try to kill them one at a time so they lose their life steal potential.

Ambulls are a resilient melee unit that restores +2 hp each turn, but their melee attack, while ignoring cover, also has pathetic armor penetration, so your units should be fine. Just concentrate fire to not let them heal up.

Catachan Devil is a very mobile and damaging monster with an aura of fear, hammer of wrath, and infiltrate (ignores overwatch), BUT it is relatively squishy and not that hard for focus fire to kill it. Just make sure to always kill its nest too, the Catachan Devil Lair, cause it will keep spawning new Catachans every few turns.

Psychneuein is the other flying neutral, those pesky wasps. In my opinion the most annoying neutral. Not hard, just annoying. They have no armor but are flying and every second turn they gain a 50% invulnerable damage reduction. Their damage is mild especially for Space Marines units. BUT they have the annoying trait that when they attack a target, if that target dies on the same turn, either by that attack or another attack, a new Psychneuein unit spawns in its place. I had a map where a whole area was flooded with Psychneueins due to this, because the AI kept losing units to them, it was hillarious. They should be manageable by your Tactical Marines though, no biggy. And since they are flying, they can't steal outposts or artifacts, so they are mostly just an annoyance, like real world bugs.

Hope this helps with the neutrals.

[Jey]

Originally posted by RustyCr0w☠:

I'm totally at a loss here. I cannot work out what I'm doing wrong..

You're building your eco wrong like all new players.

First of all:
- Start your game by buying a science building (Librarium is the name I believe? it's coloquially called "book" for obvious reasons)
- Then make one or two armories
- Some requisition.
- One energy if you are going to have negative stockpile on that, otherwise more req/armories depending on what you need.
- Pop building
- More armories/req. You should be able to support up to 4 armories with decent requisition outposts. 5 if you have incredible req.

You need to use your fortress of redemption to put them adjacent an outpost giving you requisition (grox pasture, ore field or if neither is available, shards of vaul). if you can't get any, research (ruins of vaul) is ok, then energy (pipelines) is acceptable. If you can't find any of these, it's likely better to keep your fortress in reserve for when you find one.

It's obvious but it's one fortress per outpost. It's useless to put multiple ones.

Once you understand this, you can decide where you put your city.
You should put your city in roughly the same order except that after ore field and before shards of vaul you can settle down adjacent to a fermentation pool.
The fermentation pool gives +20% requisition to tile adjacent to it but does not give a city wide 20% requisition when acquired, which makes it "useless" for fortress of redemption, but not for your city, which can build stuff on those 20% req tiles.

If you have a grox outpost and a fermentation pool at your start, you should put your city on the fermentation pool and the fortress on the grox outpost.
Even if you have 2 grox outposts and a fermentation pool, it might be worth it to put your city on the fermentation pool to ensure that you'll have two spots for your fortresses.


Note that I didn't mention loyalty, and I especially said "Only build energy when you'll get negative stockpile".

Now that you've got the basic eco down, what units should you build?

If you have the DLC, start with Razorback if you don't, make bikes.
Once you unlock the Predator, make them exclusively.

Bikes are good at killing infantry, but they are basically range 1 unit (at range 2 their damage is like a third of what it is at range 1!) and they are squishy.
Razorbacks are range 2, a bit tankier but obviously deal less damage.
Predators are anti-tank and are solid. Especially they'll be your anti-Kastelan, anti-Catachan, anti-Bastion and anti-Umbra tools.

Before you have your first two razorbacks/bikes, you must be careful. Take outposts while limiting aggro. If you see a group of two kroot hounds/cultists/hybrids near an outpost, you can take them down, but always be careful. There's no shame in retreating back to your city if you misjudged a situation.
The main goal is to find spots for your fortresses of redemption and take easy outposts. It's not to expand like crazy.

Once you have those two additional units, you should be able to clear neutrals easily as long as they're not Kastelans or stuff like that, so you can be a bit more agressive.
Plus, considering you have two armories, you can produce them "quickly" (3 or 4 turns), so even if one dies (they shouldn't! always be careful!), it's not too bad.

Then once you have Predators, you can head towards your enemy.

If you see your enemy spamming vehicles, then jackpot, keep spamming those predators, and turn their stuff into wrecks.

If they have lots of infantry, then stop the production of Predators and make Razorbacks/Bikes again, until you can have Vindicators. Then make about 70% Vindicators and 30% razorbacks/Bikes.

Vindicators are good against infantry, but they have trouble finishing them. So you need something to finish the last one/two models of infantry.

If you reach the tier 8 (you really shouldn't if you do this correctly), you can research the additional heavy bolters to make the predators good at killing everything. Once you do, there's no point in doing any other unit. Your predators will wreck it all :).


Note that it's not the One True Build. It's just an easy one to get a grasp on the game.
Once you master this build (You don't lose units against neutrals, you never have your military buildings inactive, you never float more than 100 requisition and you beat the enemy around turn 60), you can try to mix it up by trying other units like the Land Speeders, or even going for an infantry build (or a mixed build!) or even add heroes.

[TemplarGR]

As for the rest of your questions, i will try to not repeat information but i have to make sure you have the fundamentals down:

1) Orbital Relays, the "crane" building, are meant to speed up building production in the city, not units (they also give +6 influence per turn which is cool). In order to speed up unit production, you need more buildings of that unit type, more Apothecarions for infantry, more Armories for ground vehicles, more Launch pads for air units, more Reclusiams for heroes.

2) Unit (and building) speed production can be slowed down if you have negative loyalty (and sped up if you have a surplus), if you have less population units than your buildings require (it will show a red number over your city), or if your energy production isn't enough for your buildings' upkeep. Make sure you have enough requisition and energy production to meet your upkeep and don't go into too much negative loyalty.

3) If the tank you wanted to produce was a Predator, forget it. Easily the most n00b trap unit in the game. In fact, you would be much better off making Hunters since you are facing Necrons, explanation here:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/489630/discussions/0/4038104984902103061/

4) Your main starting vehicle should be Land Speeders. Scout Bikers are cool but require some more knowledge to use effectively, Land Speeders are more n00b friendly (no offense meant with the n00b word, we were all n00bs once). They are very mobile and easy to use as long as you don't do too much risky stuff. They get a melta upgrade later at tier 7 so they can deal damage to armored units. Use them for exploring.

5) Your main battle vehicle should be Dreadnought in general, since he can deal damage to everything and is resilient. If against Necrons you can use Hunters a lot though. Vindicators are best once you acquire them

6) For infantry, stick to the Tactical Marines at first. Assault Marines are better but require some experience at the game to use at their potential. Don't make Devastator Marines for the same reason, just get to Dreadnoughts and/or Hunters (if vs Necrons) faster instead. They can deal with armor in a safer way that doesn't require too much nannying. Instead, your next infantry should be Apothecaries, the medics. They can heal your infantry. Once you get to have Terminators, then you can really do some damage.

7) Heroes are really cool, try to make 1 of each when you can afford it. Captain is a tanky and mostly melee fighter that can heal itself, convert experience to influence, and occasionally deal higher melee damage and use orbital bombardment anywhere on the map. Chaplain is an Apothecary hero, is even tankier than the Captain, can do some massive heals and buffs/debuffs, and has a passive that gives up to +12 loyalty to your city (the equivalent of 2 "flag" buildings for free). Librarian is trickier to use, even experienced players get him wrong, but try to use him too, he is not expensive and can deal surprising damage if used correctly. Plus it has one of the best massive shielding abilities in the game. Give your heroes mostly armor items and Zoat Hide Jerkin as you are learning the game, to aid with their survival, plus a tantalizing icon for +8 influence production per hero or a scroll of magnus for +6 research.

8) Do not research everything, only research things that you are about to use. Don't get upgrades for units you aren't using. And don't research units you don't need either. A top priority are Dormitories, Fortress Expansion (the first city radius extension), Company Chapel, and Orbital Relay. Those techs should be researched at first priority.

9) Try to include some fermentation pools either inside your city, or drop a Fortress next to one. They boost population growth, which is the Space Marines' Achilles heel.

10) When scouting, there is no rush to explore the map. You don't need to make a second city with Space Marines, so you don't need to have found ideal locations asap. You can do it more slowly and carefully.

11) Vs the AI, making either many air units, or super heavy units, is a cheat code since the AI keeps making lower tier units even at the late game and they don't focus enough on anti-air. For Space Marines, try reaching Stormtalon Gunship fast (it is the basic Launch Pads unit no need for a separate research). Especially if you get its armor upgrades (+1 from extra vehicle armor and +1 from Ceramite Plating) , it can be surprisingly effective at hitting most ground targets. Later on, the Stormraven Gunship is your ultimate air unit, especially with the Hurricane Bolter upgrade (and it is also a transport for your infantry). Those 2 units can really shift the game to your favour so make lots of energy production and spam them for some cheesy victories at medium difficulty

12) If you have unit packs, excellent units to use for beginners are the Land Raider and the Devastator Centurions, though they come later in the game.

13) When you attack, move your unit first on the tile you want, and THEN order the attack. When you click on an enemy unit to attack it and you are not in range, the AI doesn't move you to your optimal position, it moves you to the first tile that is possible to attack the enemy. Most of the time it is not the tile you want, since many units have weapons with different ranges (hover your mouse over the weapons in their description for details) and you may attack with fewer weapons or with otherwise not all your traits enabled (for example rapid fire doubles the attacks at half range). That is why it is best to first complete the move, THEN order the attack. Make it a habit.

14) When a unit of yours is hurt, retreat it. It is better to fall back than to lose units, unless it is a calculated loss for a greater objective. Still, Space Marines are less expendable than other factions.

PS: Ignore Jey's advice to use the Predator, as i said, it is a n00b trap unit. I have written a dedicated explanation here:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/489630/discussions/0/4038104984902412297/

Stick to the Dreadnoughts instead, they are only a tier later and can deal with everything, both vehicles and infantry, better than the Predators, and don't need to reach tier 8 to become half decent vs infantry.