Drukhari ; Wyches adaptation from Codex rules. (edit: discussed and fixed)

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Codex (9th):
The Wyches have a 6+ invulnerable save against all and a 4+ invulnerable save against melee.

In the game, they have 33% melee damage reduction.
But this should translate into a 50% melee damage reduction instead of a 33%.

It's true that in Gladius armor reduction is separated and added to other damage reductions, which is wrong.

But in other factions and units (and also mods as a result) it seems that the invulnerable save was actually added as an additional reduction layer insted of an alernate reduction layerin all cases, so to remain in cohesion with that method it seems to me Wyches should have 50% melee damage reduction by default. I don't think they will break anything with that bonus either, so I guess it's a minor change but it seems really odd to have converted 4+ to 33%, whereas it should be 50%. (33% is for 5+)

[Stardustfire]

they failed hard to implement any Dmg Prevention and other scaelings from Craftworld Eldar Units already, so what make you think they woud make the Reductions stronger for Dark Eldar when they are already stronger in Gladius than normal Eldar, what in itself is a loopside of the TT Armys to begin with....

[Hellhound]

It's 33% and not 50% because the extra 17% wouldn't do anything. At level 3 a unit of Wychs has a 17% Feel no Pain bonus. With combat drugs they resist 33% more. They have a built in 33% melee damage resistance. 83% is the absolute maximum a unit can resist damage. If you really wanted to go over the top, Raider Evasion gives them 17% more damage resistance. They're already as resistant to melee damage they can possibly be.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

83% is the absolute maximum a unit can resist damage.

No.
This is the maximum for armor.
And they don't "add" this way, they are not additive the way you describe it, they apply one after the other.

In Gladius you can have as much as any kind of damage reduction multiplication piling up on each other. This is the way they made the engine and the way they imported codex thus far. So I am very, very surprised you mention a 83% as maximum damage reduction because you can already observe it is not the case in the way the game behaves.

Putting a space marine captain on wilderness will add the 83% armor + 50% hero + whatever terrain reduction + invulnerable reduction + etc, usually dividing damage by 24 or something (less if you have penetration of course, but they can have more than 10 armor as well). This means the 83% divides it by 6, the 50% divides it by 2 more, the terrain divides it again, the invulnerable save divides it again, etc. And it's more in modded space marines where they kept this conversion method. With their conversion they added the damage dividers and they all are used. This is what makes space marines and their heroes (well, the tanky one I mean, the captain) especially very resilient. (and the adeptus one too, for instance). And yes, we all know the invulnerable save should not pile up, but it does (and having the "min" reduction property, when you see it displayed, has no change about this, this trait property also available to mods does not do this)

That's the engine we have and use.

This is not an argument about "are they powerful or not".
And not an argument about attacking other factions about this or that.
This is not even an argument about balance, in the main point of it.

It's an argument about the written "4+ invulnerable save against melee" which defines the Wyches kind of behavior. Normally it gives 50% in the codex translation they have used thus far, unless I am mistaken of course. I guess there may be other exceptions but that's not "the rule", the one I observed so far.

I admit that I would rather have Gladius engine with the codex maximum (using one damage reduction instead of several piled up together) instead of current status, for all units.

But that conversion method they used has been going on since 2018, so I am not dreaming about one such modification (even if that would be immensely better, I think many players would be shocked now). Instead I was pointing out the conversion occurrence.

I did not even expect it to be controversial, to be honest, but to be analytical.

If it's controversial (so many things are controversial these days) so be it, there will be mods anyway. It's just that I am surprised players reacted this way.

If developers read this, it would be great to have a mod command that restricts a damage reduction to not pile up with other damage reductions and act as "best one if no other damage reduction can do the same". Such a property would be great for codex conversions!

[frosty2harmony]

Invulnerable does not stack with invulnerable, and it is intended to stack with all other types and does so and is fine.

I am fairly sure hellhound is correct about the 83% cap as well, but it is for each type (not each instance) rather than all combined. Feel no pain bonuses stack additively together with each other but they are capped just like armor is, and "ranged" reduction from cover or stealth or shroud or whatever stacks does the same.

So yes most types stack additively with themselves and all types stack multiplicatively with each other; but all types are capped, not just armor. At least this is what the game tells the player and the tooltips show.

[Jey]

Originally posted by Elindos Phar & Family:

Codex (9th):
The Wyches have a 6+ invulnerable save against all and a 4+ invulnerable save against melee.

Gladius use 7th edition rules if they exist.
And Wyches do have 7th edition rule.

"But Jey" you will say "It's still a 4+ invulnerable save!"
Yes. But invulnerable saves usually gets one lower tier to compensate for the way Gladius damage reduction works.

It honestly can be argued that a 50% melee damage reduction wouldn't be crazy, considering most damage are dealt by ranged units. But Wyches are already strong, so I don't think they need a buff either way.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Ah, thank you Jey for contributing the fact Gladius works on 7th edition. I think most mods were made with the 9th edition in mind too. This gives food for thought!

Still yes, it seems to me other units contribute the entire percentage of their damage reduction, though some exceptions may exist. Even if that makes them strong, or super strong, or hyper strong as some units definitely are, this is not even about this. It's just the thing about a conversion system applied to all units.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

I am fairly sure hellhound is correct about the 83% cap as well, but it is for each type (not each instance) rather than all combined.

He was saying "+17% won't do anything" because he did not think the way you mention, at least from what I could read and interpret from the post it was clear he mentioned 83% as "a total reduction from all events combined", so that's why I gave some feedback about the fact he analyzed +17% would not work.

You are right to point out that we can think nothing can do more than 83% "individually on a single line of damage reduction" (I'll have to test it in mods and check it but that makes sense), that's interesting and good info really.

Yet that does not affect the element discussed about 33 => 50%. Still good to remember.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

But invulnerable saves usually gets one lower tier to compensate for the way Gladius damage reduction works.

Sorry if I currently lack the time to check all damage reductions, if true, then 33% is valid as you mention. I can't check this from 7th but could try from 9th, it's just that it takes time to verify this. Will do over the weekend as soon as possible since you mention this.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Invulnerable does not stack with invulnerable, and it is intended to stack with all other types and does so and is fine.

Sorry for all the reply lines but I wanted to address points separately.

On that part this is wrong, or I mean, incomplete of what you intend to mean by saying it is fine and does stack with other levels.

Invulnerable in codex is never intended to stack with anything.

Invulnerable in 40K is just a way to say that if your damage reduction is reduced for any reason under what your invulnerable level is, then the unit can apply its invulnerable level instead of its regular protections. Invulnerable usually does not apply as long as there is a better protection existing on the unit.

That's the difference with what we have in Gladius, where it is an additional line of damage reduction. For units high in defense/armour, adding that line as additional reduction makes it crazily reduced. (especially considering their invulnerable effect usually is not used against most average firepower)

I think it may be obvious for most participants here but this needs to be pointed out in case some players don't know about the rule on this.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Checked a few units:

Half of them are ported directly (4+ invulnerable = 50%, etc), such as Zoanthropes "Warpfields", battle sisters "Shield of Faith" etc. Which led me into this discussion as I seemed to understand all were ported directly.

But the other half of the data I analyzed thus far - maybe exceptions - are creatively adapted.

Some such as the Tau have many other means implemented differently: Ripide has 17% (instead of 50% for its 4+) but can use a Novashield for +50% invulnerable reduction (instead of a protection vs 5+ wound from the Novashield)

Others like the Sacresant seem to have a direct 33% instead of 50% (for the 4+). Possibly because of how tanky they are, or a difference in editions.

I cannot know however the difference between 7th and 9th. Maybe some of these differences come from different editions. I have to analyze from 9th because of my limitations in the human world and my access to codex.

So you are correct Jey.

I drop my objection!
That's a good topic for mods then, for many units.
Thank you for having discussed all this.
(learnt something interesting on current designs)

[Jey]

Originally posted by Elindos Phar & Family:

Half of them are ported directly (4+ invulnerable = 50%, etc), such as Zoanthropes "Warpfields",

Warpfield is a 3+ save on tabletop.

Ripide has 17% (instead of 50% for its 4+)

Riptide has a 5+ invul save, buffed to 3+ by using its nova reactor.

I cannot know however the difference between 7th and 9th.

https://wahapedia.ru/

[frosty2harmony]

Originally posted by Elindos Phar & Family:

I am fairly sure hellhound is correct about the 83% cap as well, but it is for each type (not each instance) rather than all combined.

He was saying "+17% won't do anything" because he did not think the way you mention, at least from what I could read and interpret from the post it was clear he mentioned 83% as "a total reduction from all events combined", so that's why I gave some feedback about the fact he analyzed +17% would not work.

You are right to point out that we can think nothing can do more than 83% "individually on a single line of damage reduction" (I'll have to test it in mods and check it but that makes sense), that's interesting and good info really.

Yet that does not affect the element discussed about 33 => 50%. Still good to remember.

Sorry I got distracted from the main purpose of your post, and thank you for being so gracious in your reply.

I have never actually played tabletop myself and have only watched it be played once, so I am not familiar with how games workshop balances anything. I do enjoy looking at the models though!

[Stardustfire]

@frosty simple spoken most normal modells can survive a hit or just die (only taffer big modells or heros have more than one LP, and even than there are a few weapons that can kill several LP at once from one modell) . when the attacker manages to role a sucessful hit and manages to also role a wound it hangs on one role if the modell dies/gets one LP less or is total unscathed.
1. Armor dice (this can be pevented when the AP of the attackers weapon is higher or it get modified by teh AP, depends on the Rule Edition)
2. Cover dice (a role depending on the covertype, cant be negated by AP, but some Weapons can ignore cover , some units can positve modify there cover role because they use camo as example, so they get a cover role even when not in cover and they get better roles when in cover on top)
3. Save/Rescue dice (a never modifyable role, when the modell has a Forcefield or such things, Terminator Armor as Example has a great Armor role, but when enemy AP prevent this role/modifys it into a real bad role they can use the save dice instead (the save dice is badder than the Armor Dice by default)

you can only do one of this 3 roles to prevent a wound for each sussesful wounding hit.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Warpfield is a 3+ save on tabletop.

Indeed I see that on 7th. As I had my eyes on 9th (on same site as for some reason I did not chek the 7th archive from home page) I saw the 4+ on 9th.

Same thing on the Riptide actually.
Good point.

I am working on a mod for 10th edition, so it's fortunate you reminded me that current Gladius conversion is based on the 7th.

This will help in working out current balance.

Sorry I got distracted from the main purpose of your post, and thank you for being so gracious in your reply.

You are very welcome, you also reminded me about the 83% on a single line. With so many damage lines it's easy to forget this.

Learnt two things today.