What's the point of high damage single-shot units?

[berandro]

Due to the cap number of attacks/number of models you can kill cap, these high damage single-shot units are way less useful than multi-attack ones with less damage. Armor penetration being equal, why would I ever choose the single-shot one over, say, an infantry unit?

[TemplarGR]

Most of the time a unit has a single shot powerful weapon, it also tends to have a variation of the blast trait, giving it more attacks with more models the target has. This is a balancing issue, essentially making the single-shot unit less powerful vs tanky single model unit, than vs infantry.

[Jey]

Armor penetration being equal, why would I ever choose the single-shot one over, say, an infantry unit

You wouldn't.
But in most circumstances, when you have lots of low damage attacks they also have low AP.

High damage weapons are meant to kill tanks.

[berandro]

Ok, so usually high-damage weapons also tend to have high AP, while multi-model don't? I don't know, I look at the Devastator infantry and it has a lot of AP, which makes them better than any high-damage single attack unit... Unless I'm missing something, of course.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by berandro:

Ok, so usually high-damage weapons also tend to have high AP, while multi-model don't? I don't know, I look at the Devastator infantry and it has a lot of AP, which makes them better than any high-damage single attack unit... Unless I'm missing something, of course.

That's how Warhammer is balanced (or not balanced). The high efficiency space marines focus on elite units that are better than others on average but fewer in numbers than say AM or Orks. So the spam armies can field tons of shots while the Marine armies field tons of AP. Marines are better at decimating because they're super soldiers while other armies rely on sheer numbers and weight of fire.

[Crim]

Originally posted by berandro:

Due to the cap number of attacks/number of models you can kill cap, these high damage single-shot units are way less useful than multi-attack ones with less damage. Armor penetration being equal, why would I ever choose the single-shot one over, say, an infantry unit?

It's honestly just bad design implementation

It makes things like Melta Guns kinda garbage, so for example the Tau Piranha does basically no damage.

Basically every unit in the game that is about High Attacks tends to work against everything, while stuff that are High Damage tend to only work on somethings

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

That's how Warhammer is balanced (or not balanced). The high efficiency space marines focus on elite units that are better than others on average but fewer in numbers than say AM or Orks. So the spam armies can field tons of shots while the Marine armies field tons of AP. Marines are better at decimating because they're super soldiers while other armies rely on sheer numbers and weight of fire.

On Average Space Marines are not better, they just tend to have higher survivability

Marines are hardly super soldiers in this game. They are as generic as any other main infantry squad. Boyz vs Marines is basically a direct wash, but Boyz are 6 production cheaper.
6 production won't make or break anything, it won't make one side 'spammy' and the other side 'elite'

[Jey]

Originally posted by berandro:

I look at the Devastator infantry and it has a lot of AP.

And it's a single attack with high damage.
You have 3 models, so 3 attacks, but that doesn't change anything.

But maybe I misunderstood what you asked. Were you asking "Why would I choose Predator instead of Devastator"?

Originally posted by Crim:

It makes things like Melta Guns kinda garbage, so for example the Tau Piranha does basically no damage.

3 damage on tank at range 2 for a 1.5 upkeep unit when you have no AP at low tier is pretty decent.

[Ctrekoz]

To deal with armored targets, even if your enemy won't produce them then there's always neutrals, like Imperial Bastion and such. Also some can hit multiple models at once, and if you have a Tactical Squad with 5 models with 15 hp total, then every member has only 3 hp = do 3 hp AoE damage and they all die, which can be done with a single but powerful enough attack. Also, attacks have an accuracy, so multiple low-accuracy attacks can do more potential but less actual damage than one attack with high accuracy.

[Stormfox]

They are your anti-"heavy" units. Vehicles, monsters, some heroes and "heavy infantry" (like Tau battlesuits) all have decent to good armor and high HP per model.

The above example of the Piranha is not bad because Meltas are generally bad but because the Piranha unit in this game is underpowered, proving only a single Piranha. I modded mine to have two slightly weaker Piranhas and they suddenly work fine. Remember they also got 5-cd-drones, thee add to their power level significantly.

In general, the starter units from the vehicle factories tend to be a bit meh. The imperial Sentinel is likely the best of them because it does something that works against well against all unit types: It has medium powered attacks, but a relatively high amount of them.

Specialized units, i.e. those that are mainly good against units or against heavies but not both are the norm. The units that happen to be all-rounders are the outliers and tend to be among the best units in the game. Crisis suits, Hydras, Annihilator Barges, most Mechanicus units, Dakkajets, Meltaspeeders: They all just work and are very spammable.

From a game design POV, I consider things like the Maulerfiend peak design: They are very very good at their intended role (killing vehicles), mediocre against some "adjacent" cases like heroes and heavy infantry, and spectacularly bad against light units. They have a clear battlefield role they are good in and that warrants building some but not spamming them.

[berandro]

Originally posted by Crim:

That's how Warhammer is balanced (or not balanced). The high efficiency space marines focus on elite units that are better than others on average but fewer in numbers than say AM or Orks. So the spam armies can field tons of shots while the Marine armies field tons of AP. Marines are better at decimating because they're super soldiers while other armies rely on sheer numbers and weight of fire.

That's unfortunate

[Crim]

Originally posted by berandro:

3 damage on tank at range 2 for a 1.5 upkeep unit when you have no AP at low tier is pretty decent.

It does about the same or less damage than Fire Warriors, except its squishier than Fire Warriors, its only saving grace is the half CD drones.

Originally posted by Stormfox:

They are your anti-"heavy" units. Vehicles, monsters, some heroes and "heavy infantry" (like Tau battlesuits) all have decent to good armor and high HP per model.

The above example of the Piranha is not bad because Meltas are generally bad but because the Piranha unit in this game is underpowered, proving only a single Piranha. I modded mine to have two slightly weaker Piranhas and they suddenly work fine. Remember they also got 5-cd-drones, thee add to their power level significantly.

In general, the starter units from the vehicle factories tend to be a bit meh. The imperial Sentinel is likely the best of them because it does something that works against well against all unit types: It has medium powered attacks, but a relatively high amount of them.

Specialized units, i.e. those that are mainly good against units or against heavies but not both are the norm. The units that happen to be all-rounders are the outliers and tend to be among the best units in the game. Crisis suits, Hydras, Annihilator Barges, most Mechanicus units, Dakkajets, Meltaspeeders: They all just work and are very spammable.

From a game design POV, I consider things like the Maulerfiend peak design: They are very very good at their intended role (killing vehicles), mediocre against some "adjacent" cases like heroes and heavy infantry, and spectacularly bad against light units. They have a clear battlefield role they are good in and that warrants building some but not spamming them.

Melta's aren't inherently Bad, the problem is that a Single Melta shot in this game is worthless. Your fix, literally fixes the problem I'm talking about, you increased the number of Attacks.

The way that the game calculates damage is that FIRST it reduces the damage to the target's max health, THEN it reduces the damage based on your Accuracy...

Are you using the Super Secret Weapon called NUKE that does literally 5,000,000 damage?

Did you just aim that 5,000,000 damage weapon on a Cultist Squad that has 20 health? Well, each individual Cultist only has 2 Health, so your 5,000,000 damage is first reduced to 2

Oh, your 5,000,000 damage nuke is balanced by its low 1% accuracy, well now that it was reduced to 2 damage, Accuracy kicks in and it now deals 0.02 damage

Congratulations, you just Nuked Cultist for 0.02 damage.

[Ctrekoz]

That's some insane math if it's true. But isn't Accuracy makes you completely miss some attacks instead?

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Ctrekoz:

That's some insane math if it's true. But isn't Accuracy makes you completely miss some attacks instead?

No. This is on the tabletop. In Gladius accuracy just adjusts damage directly. Each attack with 6 accuracy for example (50%), just does half the damage stat, so if it says 10 damage, it deals 5.

[Stormfox]

No, it works exactly as described. But that's a good thing. It creates design space for different weapons that are good against different types of enemies without having to rely on "armor types" or whatnot like most of the RTS games do, for example.

The balancing is just a tad off. The Piranha is bad because making it a single unit is stupid when similar units are teams of two or three light vehicles (see: Sentinels, War Walkers, Land Speeders). Blast/Ordinance weapons are a tad underpowered because they do not get enough additional hits against squads to keep up with massed light arms and do not have extra anti-heavy bonuses, so they are kinda like pure anti-heavy weapons that suck a bit less gainst troopers. On the other hand, mid-str, mid-pen weapons are slightly too good in this implementation because they work well against everything.

The core model for how they translated the tabletop stats to the ingame stats is extremely good and delivers decent results most of the time. It just needs a few manual tweaks here and there instead of fully adhering to the formula.

[Crim]

Originally posted by Stormfox:

No, it works exactly as described. But that's a good thing. It creates design space for different weapons that are good against different types of enemies without having to rely on "armor types" or whatnot like most of the RTS games do, for example.

The balancing is just a tad off. The Piranha is bad because making it a single unit is stupid when similar units are teams of two or three light vehicles (see: Sentinels, War Walkers, Land Speeders). Blast/Ordinance weapons are a tad underpowered because they do not get enough additional hits against squads to keep up with massed light arms and do not have extra anti-heavy bonuses, so they are kinda like pure anti-heavy weapons that suck a bit less gainst troopers. On the other hand, mid-str, mid-pen weapons are slightly too good in this implementation because they work well against everything.

The core model for how they translated the tabletop stats to the ingame stats is extremely good and delivers decent results most of the time. It just needs a few manual tweaks here and there instead of fully adhering to the formula.

^ This

The system works fine, but some weapons need to be tweaked.

It's good that they have taken so much from the tabletop, but they have made so many changes that they now have their own balance schema, which means that now they need to adjust their balance to the needs of their game, and separate themselves from the table top numbers.

As said, they need to do something about Blast Weapons just being kinda trash... and they need to do something about Single Shot Weapons being just terrible compared to Multi Shot weapons

[Crim]

One of my favorite examples of how broken the math is and how they need to fix some stuff is the Ghostkeel Gun, Cyclic Ionic Raker

You can switch profiles between
Standard - 4 damage, 6 attacks, 2 AP
Overcharged - 6 damage, 1 attack, 2 AP, Large Blast

Note, the 'Overcharged' is intended to be the stronger option, because it has 'Gets Hot' to discourage usage.

However, the Overcharged version does less damage against ALL ENEMIES.

Even Chaos Cultist, who have exactly 2 Armor and 10 models, making them vulnerable to Large Blasts
Standard - 7.4 damage
Overcharged - 6.1 damage

- Note the Tabletop version of the Overcharged option is just +1 damage, so I am glad they experimented with a more interesting option, but this is literally just trash.

Also, make the Melta property be +50% damage when at half range, which is more similar to the tabletop version