Devastator Centurions OP?

[Basilllisk]

Been playing mostly space marines while I get a better handle on the game, a few games in now with them and I tried some different tech priorities each time. It really seems like the devastator centurions make everything else in the SM arsenal paltry by comparison.

The damage out of these units puts even the land raiders to shame and that seems odd given they're infantry units, cheaper to build, cheaper to maintain, and available a tier sooner. They have less health but apothecaries are cheaper than the thunderfire cannon so keeping them alive is never a problem. They take out armor and infantry like butter. They're also by far the best unit for taking down fortifications, making things like the vindicator, who's supposed to have that job, worthless.

They really feel better than literally ever other unit. It's so weird from a balance perspective.

[Jey]

Centurions are glass cannons. By the time you get them out, the enemy has also access to very strong units that can wreck your Centurions.

The Land Raider that you compare them with is not a glass cannon. It's a transport. It's significantly more tanky than a Centurion and being an assault vehicle it can demultiply the power of other infantry units (including... Centurions).

In late game, if you play infantry, you are supposed to have a frontline of Terminators with Centurions to deal the big damage while being hard to touch.

They're also by far the best unit for taking down fortifications, making things like the vindicator, who's supposed to have that job, worthless.

The Vindicator job is to take out infantry with high HP and ranged reduction, not taking down fortresses (that's a Predator job)
Admittedly Centurions deal so much damage (and can also ignore ranged reduction) that they beat the Vindicator at this job. But they are 2 tier later, more expensive, slower and squishier.
And the same thing applies for Predator VS Centurion.

[Basilllisk]

I wouldn't call them squishy, they have really high armor, and while their HP is low it's high enough to prevent being one shot by anything that I've encountered. I tried the terminators but I haven't actually needed to use them as shields. Maybe I need to up the difficulty.

Originally posted by Jey:

The Vindicator job is to take out infantry with high HP and ranged reduction, not taking down fortresses (that's a Predator job)
Admittedly Centurions deal so much damage (and can also ignore ranged reduction) that they beat the Vindicator at this job. But they are 2 tier later, more expensive, slower and squishier.
And the same thing applies for Predator VS Centurion.

Well clearly I didn't realize that was where I should be using the predator. I assumed to use vindicators there, y'know, close range cannon. I'll try using them in the situations you mentioned, thanks for the feedback.

[Jey]

Originally posted by Basilllisk:

I wouldn't call them squishy, they have really high armor, and while their HP is low it's high enough to prevent being one shot by anything that I've encountered.

You don't look at the correct units. A small selection of units:
XV88 broadside (unbuffed but with movement): -14 HP. Gets basically wiped in exchange but they cost 33% less.
XV25 Stealth: -12 HP. lose half HP (wiped if omnispex). Cost half as much.
Paragon Warsuits: -16 HP. Lose about a third HP.
Death Scythe (The fighter jet of Necrons): -19.3 HP. Almost one-shot, but costs 33% less.
Devil Dog: -8.5 HP. Lose about 2/3 HP, but cost half as much.
Leman Russ: -7.2 HP (-9.2 with Bolters). Lose less than half HP, cost 33% less.
Carnifex: -16.2 HP (with the two additional weapons and Living Battering Ram). Lose 80% HP, cost 33% less.
Monolith: -16.7 HP, loses about 30% HP. Costs 25% more.
Exorcist: -10 HP (-11 with bolters I guess?). Loses a bit over 50% HP. cost 33% less.
Meganobz: -10.7 HP (so about -13 with max WAAAGH), almost one-shot, cost half as much.
Obliterators: -15.5 HP, takes a bit over 50% HP.
Praetorians: -9 HP. takes a bit over 50% HP. cost half as much.
The Land Raider you mentioned: -14.6 HP(with multi-melta). Takes less than 33% of his HP, cost 33% more.

I missed a lot of units that are very cost effective at dealing damage to centurions.

You can probably argue "Yeah well most of those units also deal heavy damage to whatever else is in your SM roster".
Which is certainly true. A Land Raider will definitely not like being hit by Obliterators either for example.
But a Land raider cannot lose models (= no morale loss/morale regen for the enemy) and has close to 3 times the HP of a Centurion Squad.
That is tanky.

At rank 8, having 10 armor, 8 HP and 3 models makes you a prime target for basically anything. Hence, Centurions are glass cannon.

I assumed to use vindicators there, y'know, close range cannon.

Use the stat of the weapon.
1 attack, high damage, explosion -> Mostly against high HP infantry (such as the Centurion ironically).
1 attack, high damage, bonus damage against vehicles/fortifications/monstrous creature -> Against... well.. everything I've just quoted.

[Stardustfire]

the Centurions are far away from Glass cannons, there armor and hp is only second to Termis compared to other none Hero SM Units.
They are in the same slot as Termis, but with a slight changedusage window.
Termis excel at Melee Range vs grounded units.
Centurions have there place at range 3 and are good vs Flyers on Top.
one of the main differences is that Centurions have less Modells, what makes Model loose more impactful for them.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Jey:

Centurions are glass cannons.

By what metric?

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

there armor and hp is only second to Termis compared to other none Hero SM Units.

DC are a tier 8 unit but fight more like a t10 infantry unit. They have 3 range and deal massive damage to literally everything. They are very robust when you compare them to pretty much every other infantry unit in the game and are stronger than some heroes.

Honestly this unit should be put into T10 and the hunter killer missile should be moved down to T8.

[Jey]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

the Centurions are far away from Glass cannons

Factually wrong.

Originally posted by glythe:

Originally posted by Jey:

Centurions are glass cannons.

By what metric?

Have you looked at the short overview of units slaughtering centurions I gave? It's only a small overview, you can definitely find more of them.

It's an unit that gets destroyed by a lot of units while also dealing incredibly high damage.
That's the textbook definition of glass cannon.

If your definition of tankiness is "Well a T1 unit doesn't kill it in one turn!", you're really missing the point.

DC are a tier 8 unit but fight more like a t10 infantry unit.

By WhAT MeTrIC?
You need 4 Centurions + a tiny bit to kill a Hierodule.
One Hierodule can cripple into oblivion two centurions per turn. (18.7 +21.3 damage).

An unmoving Stormsurge one-hits a centurion per turn (it can almost do so at range 3, and will definitely do so if buffed). You need 3 centurions to one-turn a Stormsurge (and let's be serious Stormsurge are buffed with everything you have, so that simply will never happen).

Scorpions one-turn a Centurion per turn at range 3 and you need 5 Centurions + a tiny bit to kill it (oh yeah oops it can move faster than a Centurion, too bad).

The Tiger Shark is a bit out of its element, but it can still wipe a squad, weaken a second one then leave far far away.

The marauder bomber is terribad, but even he is almost worth it against centurions.

The Knight Crusader one-shot a squad and can utterly cripple a second one every turn and it absorbs almost 4 Centurions.

The baneblade absorbs 6, almost SEVEN HITS FROM CENTURIONS. WIthout any upgrade.
Nada. Nothing. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ZILCH. Meanwhile without any upgrade, he "just" cripples a Centurion. But with his additional weapons, he can kill one per turn (also you just ... you know... buff your baneblades and they become way scarier). and the baneblade is probably the worst T10.

Comparing Centurions to T10 units is of incredible bad faith. They are simply not their match.

They are very robust when you compare them to pretty much every other infantry unit in the game

Who cares? Comparing Centurions with guardsmen is pointless.
What you have to look at is "How do Centurions fare against units around their tier". Spoiler alert: I have already given a lot of units who deals incredibly high damage to Centurion for a fraction of their cost usually.

Centurions are not tanky. They need a frontline (usually Terminators) to perform well.

What do you call an unit that deals high damage but gets wrecked by a lot of stuff and need someone else to tank the damage? Yes you got it. A glass cannon.

and are stronger than some heroes.

A captain or Chaplain are both tankier than a Centurion without any additional upgrade or items. One is available at T1, the other available at T2.
Both can be made extra tankier by adding items.

No. Centurions are not tanky.

Honestly this unit should be put into T10

No, it's not even close.

[Stardustfire]

seems like in France the Definition of glass cannons is different than in the rest of the world.
because it means in the rest of the world a unit with high dmg and ultralow survivalbility, and the second part is none existant at centurions.

[Grotzel]

It's a question of 'relative to what'. They are pretty tough for an infantry squad ... but they only have three models ... so even a guardsmen squad could potentially be better at taking damage from some sources. For late game units, Devastators are simply not the toughest and as Jey pointed out, there's quite a lot of stuff that can squish them. It's a rather peculiar sort of 'glass', though.

I'm not going to calculate how many guardsmen would be needed to take out a Devastator squad, though ... :)

[TemplarGR]

When you want to characterize a unit's role, you need to do it according to its tier, because in a well balanced game where each player has similar economy development speeds, those are the units it will likely co-exist with on the battlefield. So yes, while technically Centurions are not squishy if you compare them with the whole faction's range, for their tier they are on the squishier side... I am not sure i would call them glass cannons myself, but in any case they are not far from that characterization.

As for their supposed OP-ness, no, i don't think they are OP. They are very powerful and useful, yes. But there are far more powerful end-game units in other factions. Centurions feel OP perhaps because they are one of the few viable end game infantries for any faction. We are used to infantries being garbage when super heavies are everywhere, so when Centurions can hold their own and be useful we think they are OP.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Jey:

It's an unit that gets destroyed by a lot of units while also dealing incredibly high damage.
That's the textbook definition of glass cannon.

Devastator Centurions have 10 armor and 24 hp. That's not exactly a glass cannon unit.
The Hierodule has 8 armor and 72 hp.

The Hierodule costs 320 and has 16 upkeep.
DC cost 120 and have 6 upkeep.



Fine maybe it should be a t9 unit but there's no way this is on the same page as other t8 units. Compare the Chaos Obliterator and you get a unit that has the same cost as the DC but has 18 hp and range 2. For some insane reason the Chaos t8 unit does not get the champion of chaos trait.

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

But there are far more powerful end-game units in other factions.

Name a better t8 unit. Consider as well that DC will almost always have the ability to do a front line deployment and most factions will be walking to the front line for 2-10 turns.

[Jey]

Originally posted by glythe:

Devastator Centurions have 10 armor and 24 hp. That's not exactly a glass cannon unit.

Repeating the same sentence over and over doesn't make it true suddenly.
You failed repeatedly to understand that a unit has a context. I leave you to re-read my previous messages as well as Grotzel's.

The Hierodule has 8 armor and 72 hp

And 33% FnP.

The Hierodule costs 320 and has 16 upkeep. DC cost 120 and have 6 upkeep.

Your point being? Because I have done the Hierodule/Centurion comparison in a previous post, and it's not looking good for Centurions at all.

Compare the Chaos Obliterator and you get a unit that has the same cost as the DC but has 18 hp and range 2

Obliterator have 33% Invulnerable meaning they have 27 effective HP, making them just barely tankier than Centurion.
Additionally having invulnerable reduction VS having more HP means they are less prone to be one-shot. For example they are not one-shot by a Scorpion at range 3 (though they are obviously left crippled because Scorpion ♥♥♥♥ yeah).
They also can receive a mark + icon to be specialized against the enemy (4 move Obliterators to chase tanks anyone?)

Name a better t8 unit.

Predator with Bolters? Leman Russ with Bolters?
They're both pretty incredible units.

Now either deal less direct damage than Centurion that's for sure. I absolutely agree that Centurions damage are very good.
But Predators cost half as much(!), don't make you lose a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of morale when partially damaged, and overall requires as much damage as Centurions to be removed.
Leman Russ is more expensive but noticeably tankier.


As usual I'm open to putting things to the test.
Try to reach Centurions without being defeated (main difficulty honestly), then produce Centurions en masse and try not to lose them all (less difficult but still pretty hard).

I will insist again : Centurions need a strong frontline (aka Terminators) to protect them.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Jey:

Originally posted by glythe:

Name a better t8 unit.

Predator with Bolters? Leman Russ with Bolters?
They're both pretty incredible units.

Forgive me but is the Predator not a t4 unit? What tier is the Leman Russ again? It's not an 8 either even though there was a time it was like a t5 unit. If we wanted to be completely fair we should say : name a better T8 *infantry* unit. You could even compare them to something in T6 or T7 for the cost.

If you insisted on comparing the predator with its upgrade to the DC then you would also need to give the DC its upgrade (which gives it a huge advantage over the Obliterator).

You could make an argument that the Wraith in T6 is "somewhat on par" with the DC at T8. Since the wraith is T6 it comes out faster and might have more of a meaningful impact- blah blah blah. The wraith has all its hp on two models that heal every turn. But the Wraith can't attack flying units and DC will demolish the hell out of those.


It would be one thing if the Obliterator had Deep Strike (Which is has built into TT). You're also conveniently forgetting that you can have a unit sitting behind a Centurion to heal it every turn.

I don't know how you play this game but I have never needed Terminators to protect my DC's.

-"Try to reach Centurions without being defeated (main difficulty)"

I think I've read enough.

[Jey]

You move the goal point and it's tiring.

We went from "Centurion are tanky and a T10 unit" to "Well they are the best T8 unit" to "Well there isn't a better infantry unit at T8".

I'd argue you're still wrong and C'tan is an infantry unit AND T8 AND better than a Centurion. But it's a monstrous creature so maybe that doesn't count.

The only two other options at T8 are Obliterators (slightly tankier, less range and probably less damage overall), and Broadside (Mostly range 2, is affected by Heavy penalty, but cheaper).

I'd say out of the three Centurions might be the best.

But :
- That doesn't make them tanky, they're glass cannon.
- They are not a T10 unit by any measure.

I have never needed Terminators to protect my DC's.

Well I'm open to teach you why you need them and also why it's hard to reach Centurions. But I'm under no illusion, you will find reasons to not do it. I'm used to it.
People make claims, tell me I don't know ♥♥♥♥, and when asked to back up what they claim they find a million excuses. So eh.

[Grotzel]

Originally posted by Jey:

People make claims, tell me I don't know ♥♥♥♥, and when asked to back up what they claim they find a million excuses. So eh.

I have this tingling suspicion that you might have just this tiny bit of competitiveness in you, Jey. You can prove me wrong ... by resisting that overwhelming urge to challenge folks when I ...
hereby ...
proudly and loudly ...
proclaim that ork boyz ... are, in fact, the best unit in the game and can easily beat every other one! ;)
Wait, did I just challenge you not to challenge me? So if you refuse to do that ... would I even win or ... would you? Or both / neither of us? This is complicated. I may not have thought this through properly ... Arg ... head hurts, have to stop thinking.

[Jey]

Originally posted by Grotzel:

I ... proclaim that ork boyz ... are, in fact, the best unit in the game and can easily beat every other one! ;)

If you honestly and sincerely believed that and insisted on it being the truth in spite of obvious facts that it's not the truth, then yes, I would ask you to play a game with me where you spam boys.

If you can't be convinced by words, you can be convinced by gameplay.