Imperial Guard/Astra Help?

[Casino]

So I'm no expert but I can beat maps decently regularly on very hard at this point with my main factions - orks, tyranids, and SM; but MAN do I suck with the guard. It seems like every first faction I meet it becomes a meat-grinder slog to beat them and by the time I do I'm way behind and some other faction (usually Necrons) comes up and just overwhelms me. I've only been playing against the AI and so I'm sure it's just something I'm doing wrong. I'm curious what advice some vets here have; what turn do you usually try to get city 2 by? Do you frequently largely skip infantry and go vehicle heavy? Do you use fortifications a lot?

[Stormfox]

Building a second city has the same priority as with any other faction: ASAP.

Since your heroes are rather squishy and two of them not that strong, you might want to forego the hero buildiung for a while so you have influence to build the third city very quickly, too. This is generally a solid alternative for anyone, but especially those that do not have super strong or important heroes (like, Tyranids who get really strong guys with Synapse should obviously build heroes from the start). You actually do not lose out much XP-wise since the game gives later built heroes a little late-spawning bonus level (every 20 turns iirc, obviously depending on game speed).

Skipping the barracks is a solid move. Yes, the infantry is better than you migh think of reasons outlined above (and the fact that the basic guys are ridiculously cheap), but I agree that focusing on vehicles first when you are in a food-deficient starting area is likely the better start.


All early AM vehicles are solid. The Sentinels are astonishingly tanky and have decent enough all-around firepower for being the base unit out of your factory, and the scouting ability can be useful in the early game.

The Chimera is extremely useful to hop your damaged squads and heroes in and still carry them around, or to have your mechanics in. As long as they have someone in there, the lasgun array fires and suddenly transforms their damage in to the "very respectable" level. Units inside vehicles heal as if they rested even if the vehicle moves and fires and heroes inside even get XP as if they stood on that space. Its really a win-win.

The Hydra is one of the best vehicles in the game. It is still ridiculously cheap but boasts a range 3 weapon with anti-air. It is good enough as a range 3 poker against ground targets, solid at range 2 and solves typical early game problems like Umbra. Having built a bunch of them early also means you already got them if you happen upon a flyer spamming enemy, and otherwise they are still good range 3 pokers that even get no penalties if they target skimmers, which almost every race uses quite a lot. The only thing the Hydra lacks is toughness, since it has only mediocre HP and armor for a single vehicle.


Against wildlife, you do the same thing all races should do in the first few moves and what all races with squishy starting units need to do: You keep together and advance slowly. Research the grenades and the medkit even if you go for vehicles at first - even having the frags on your three starting squads as well as heroes and techpriests is astonishingly useful, and as other said, with their medpack they are surprisingly resilient and do not have to run back or hop into a chimera quite as often.

As with any other race, avoid Kastellan and Umbra groups at first, most likely wait a while before tackling those psychoflies, too, because you have squishy units that can easily be sniped and turned by them. If you go vehicles early, these should be trivial to deal with once you get your first Hydras, though.

If you consistently get units killed by wildlife, you are simply playing reckless to begin with - that is a playstyle issue, not a unit issue.

[Casino]

Stormfox lähetti viestin:

Building a second city has the same priority as with any other faction: ASAP.

Since your heroes are rather squishy and two of them not that strong, you might want to forego the hero buildiung for a while so you have influence to build the third city very quickly, too. This is generally a solid alternative for anyone, but especially those that do not have super strong or important heroes (like, Tyranids who get really strong guys with Synapse should obviously build heroes from the start). You actually do not lose out much XP-wise since the game gives later built heroes a little late-spawning bonus level (every 20 turns iirc, obviously depending on game speed).

Skipping the barracks is a solid move. Yes, the infantry is better than you migh think of reasons outlined above (and the fact that the basic guys are ridiculously cheap), but I agree that focusing on vehicles first when you are in a food-deficient starting area is likely the better start.


All early AM vehicles are solid. The Sentinels are astonishingly tanky and have decent enough all-around firepower for being the base unit out of your factory, and the scouting ability can be useful in the early game.

The Chimera is extremely useful to hop your damaged squads and heroes in and still carry them around, or to have your mechanics in. As long as they have someone in there, the lasgun array fires and suddenly transforms their damage in to the "very respectable" level. Units inside vehicles heal as if they rested even if the vehicle moves and fires and heroes inside even get XP as if they stood on that space. Its really a win-win.

The Hydra is one of the best vehicles in the game. It is still ridiculously cheap but boasts a range 3 weapon with anti-air. It is good enough as a range 3 poker against ground targets, solid at range 2 and solves typical early game problems like Umbra. Having built a bunch of them early also means you already got them if you happen upon a flyer spamming enemy, and otherwise they are still good range 3 pokers that even get no penalties if they target skimmers, which almost every race uses quite a lot. The only thing the Hydra lacks is toughness, since it has only mediocre HP and armor for a single vehicle.


Against wildlife, you do the same thing all races should do in the first few moves and what all races with squishy starting units need to do: You keep together and advance slowly. Research the grenades and the medkit even if you go for vehicles at first - even having the frags on your three starting squads as well as heroes and techpriests is astonishingly useful, and as other said, with their medpack they are surprisingly resilient and do not have to run back or hop into a chimera quite as often.

As with any other race, avoid Kastellan and Umbra groups at first, most likely wait a while before tackling those psychoflies, too, because you have squishy units that can easily be sniped and turned by them. If you go vehicles early, these should be trivial to deal with once you get your first Hydras, though.

If you consistently get units killed by wildlife, you are simply playing reckless to begin with - that is a playstyle issue, not a unit issue.

Thanks for the advice, interesting about the hydras, I'll have to try to pump out more of them at some point when I feel like playing IG again and see how it works out. And yeah, neutrals really aren't an issue for me at all at this point.

[Torrens]

Ogryns are the ultimate AM meathsield. When you give them the -50% damage taken upgrade they are absolutely insane. Plant them on city/forrest tiles and laugh at anything that tries to kill them.

[TemplarGR]

Torrens lähetti viestin:

Ogryns are the ultimate AM meathsield. When you give them the -50% damage taken upgrade they are absolutely insane. Plant them on city/forrest tiles and laugh at anything that tries to kill them.

They can hit like a truck when buffed by a Lord Comissar too...

[kesa822000]

Lol , this has turned into the best Astra Militarium guide on Steam. :D

Along with Sisters of Battle , the Guard is my favorite faction , but I couldn't get them to work in this game --- until this thread came along.

[ssumbra]

Casino lähetti viestin:

So I'm no expert but I can beat maps decently regularly on very hard at this point with my main factions - orks, tyranids, and SM; but MAN do I suck with the guard. It seems like every first faction I meet it becomes a meat-grinder slog to beat them and by the time I do I'm way behind and some other faction (usually Necrons) comes up and just overwhelms me. I've only been playing against the AI and so I'm sure it's just something I'm doing wrong. I'm curious what advice some vets here have; what turn do you usually try to get city 2 by? Do you frequently largely skip infantry and go vehicle heavy? Do you use fortifications a lot?

I have so far played mostly ig and i can safely say that while some people seem to think comissar is great, i personally found him not worth it. Just skip heroes entirely until your position is secured, the tank commander is better anyway since he comes in with a leman russ. You can safely skip tempestus scions and ratlings. The thing you cant sleep on though is heavy weapons teams. These guys are absolutely insane, they do insane damage against anything, coupled with 3 range. Rush vehicles, build 2-3 chimeras and spam heavy weapons, usually 4-6 with your starting inf if you can keep it. That plus 2-3 cogbois and a devil dog when you can get one will get you very far.

[TemplarGR]

ssumbra lähetti viestin:

Casino lähetti viestin:

So I'm no expert but I can beat maps decently regularly on very hard at this point with my main factions - orks, tyranids, and SM; but MAN do I suck with the guard. It seems like every first faction I meet it becomes a meat-grinder slog to beat them and by the time I do I'm way behind and some other faction (usually Necrons) comes up and just overwhelms me. I've only been playing against the AI and so I'm sure it's just something I'm doing wrong. I'm curious what advice some vets here have; what turn do you usually try to get city 2 by? Do you frequently largely skip infantry and go vehicle heavy? Do you use fortifications a lot?

I have so far played mostly ig and i can safely say that while some people seem to think comissar is great, i personally found him not worth it. Just skip heroes entirely until your position is secured, the tank commander is better anyway since he comes in with a leman russ. You can safely skip tempestus scions and ratlings. The thing you cant sleep on though is heavy weapons teams. These guys are absolutely insane, they do insane damage against anything, coupled with 3 range. Rush vehicles, build 2-3 chimeras and spam heavy weapons, usually 4-6 with your starting inf if you can keep it. That plus 2-3 cogbois and a devil dog when you can get one will get you very far.

Basically, you ignore infantry and focus on those shinny vehicles, that's your problem, but unless you get a heavy-ore start, you are playing unoptimally.

Explain how a Lord Comissar "is not worth it"? He is one of the cheapest (if not the cheapest, can't tell from memory) heroes in the game. His cost is pathetic and you can spawn multiple easily. He is not powerful on his own, he is a support hero, he is supposed to multiply the effectiveness of nearby infantry. So the reason you are finding him "not worth it" is because you are not using infantry.... Yet if you take a look at his abilities, you can see that infantry boosted by a Comissar can be an effective force even late in the game. He gives a passive boost to accuracy to nearby units, accuracy=damage. He can give significant armor piercing boost to nearby units every 3 turns as well. Last but not least, he can also give a HUGE morale boost in a HUGE area just by sacrificing an infantry model, preferably from a guardsman or scion unit nearby.... Morale is a big issue for most AM units. Lord Commissar makes sure to mitigate it. Basically, Commissar counters all AM infantry weaknesses. Lack of proper armor piercing, poor accuracy, low morale. Add to that that since he is not supposed to be fighting on his own, you can use his item slots for more support items instead. You only need to give him the usual defensive triplet (+3 armor, +3 hit points, double healing rate). At lvl 6 he can ressurect, and his passive aura can work even when placed inside a Chimera (a trait unique for him only). So basically, as long as commissars are next to your infantry, they can fight closer to how infantry of other factions can fight.

Also, why skip scions and ratlings? I am not saying they are mandatory, but they are pretty useful especially in the early game when your vehicles lack anti-infantry punch. Scions are basically the chad version of Guardsmen, and they can be suprisingly effective vs vehicles as well, especially with a Commissar. In fact, while i don't play AM much, in most of the games i do i prefer to skip Heavy Weapons teams and rush to Scions instead. Far more flexible and earlier in the game they don't have much armor to face anyway.

The way you play with AM, means that all an opponent has to do to destroy you every time, is to spam anti-vehicle infantry. That's it. And he is going to have a tier advantage too, because vehicles, especially the really powerful ones that can eliminate infantry in cover easily, come much later in the game. Yes it is cool if you like the shinny shinny vehicles, but you are playing unoptimally and give bad advice.

[Jey]

TemplarGR lähetti viestin:

you are playing unoptimally and give bad advice.

<insert "Your double standards doubled down and died" gif from TTS>

[TemplarGR]

Jey lähetti viestin:

TemplarGR lähetti viestin:

you are playing unoptimally and give bad advice.

<insert "Your double standards doubled down and died" gif from TTS>

Yet another ad hominem without substance or argument, as per usual. Yawn

[EpimeTheAus]

TemplarGR lähetti viestin:

Jey lähetti viestin:

<insert "Your double standards doubled down and died" gif from TTS>

Yet another ad hominem without substance or argument, as per usual. Yawn

Don't worry mate, you're arguing against Ogryns that for some reason think the Astra Militarum infantry functions better without commissars, despite the fact that he buffs the ever loving ♥♥♥♥ out of grenades as well as standard shots for units like Tempestus Scions who then become capable of tearing through Gorkanauts like wet paper bags.

[Jey]

TemplarGR lähetti viestin:

Yet another ad hominem without substance or argument, as per usual.

I'm ready to prove my point in game. But you don't want to do that, because facts are scary for you.
Therefore I'm allowed to just make fun of you when the irony is as strong as you of all people saying anyone is playing unoptimally and give bad advice. And that's regardless of the truthiness of their assertions.

EpimeTheAus lähetti viestin:

Don't worry mate, you're arguing against Ogryns that for some reason think the Astra Militarum infantry functions better without commissars

Note that I didn't say that ssumbra point was good.
I don't really agree on HWT being an integral part of AM's composition.
But I do agree with his point that Commissar is not a must-have.

If you plan to play 100% infantry from turn 1 to the end of the game, then sure, I guess a Commissar is interesting, but if that's your plan, I really would like to know what you plan on doing when the enemy starts producing high-tier units.
Bullgryns thanks to their shiny 50% invul can tank a bit but they are pretty harshly countered by air (and if you think HWT with Commissars can counter actual air units, I have bad news) and decently countered by:
- Anything with blast (like say Devil Dog, Vindicator...)
- Stuff that ignore ZoC (Lictors (which can kinda faceplants Bullgryns too, but they are so expensive who would waste them on that), Wraiths)
- The fact that Bullgryns are T6 and oh boy are you going to need a lot of time to get them and give them their shield and before that your army is far from tanky. Unless your enemy goes full anti-tank, I guess.

So in my opinion, it's obvious that you can't play full infantry. You simply won't scale in the late game. And I don't think AM is strong enough in most settings to just bum-rush another faction. But I suppose if the map is clement enough... Maybe.

Still, I believe you need mechanized units (Air units arrive too late to be your real transition, though you might add them).

If you make mechanized units, then your economy is already split between your infantry and your vehicles.
Making a Commissar means you have a building that will produce one unit (and 2 influence 1 loyalty, not really anything interesting)) and will be left useless the rest of the game.
Whereas you need so much ore and food and energy and production buildings. And then you have to be careful because the Commissar isn't really tanky (or you need to spend a lot of influence on him). And if he dies that's a huge investment that's just... wasted.
And keep in mind that since you split your army in two types, your Commissar only benefit like half your army at best.


Note that the Commissar in a vacuum is definitely a good hero. But the opportunity cost is too high to make him in most games, because you need an army. Not a squishy toy.

I would also like to introduce a different choice. Psykers.
Wyrdvane psykers come late in the research tree, but they can put a solid +50% damage on tanks (or heroes. Or anything that you can't just kill with a few shots).
They are dirt cheap (15 food/15 energy on standard cost). They can annihilate chaff too.
They are squishy. The enemy will definitely murder the hell out of them. But they are cheap and every hit that the psykers take is one that your tanks don't take.

Certainly their bonuses aren't as high as a Commissar, but they affect all of your units and you can use them without being too worried about their death.
The psyker building is pretty decent (2 energy 2 influence iirc? For an upkeep of 1 loyalty). You could use an edict to speed them up though I think it's a lot of investment in research and influence when plopping down a second psyker building is probably just overall better.

They are a very efficient support for tanks without the cost of a useless building. Which can provide a lot of mass to your army.



But as usual if you're convinced that a Commissar + full infantry is the best thing AM can do, I'm always open to play a game against you.

[Grotzel]

Someone get the Commissar in here, the lads are fighting again! ;)

Before this gets bogged down in efficiency discussions: Commissars are fun.
In my humble opinion, they are also very much worth it. I'd argue that they make your starting forces way more effective, are good enough to soak up some damage and stay useful - especially when well equipped with items. If you want to argue that a purely vehicle based strategy (boooring! :) ) is better ... maybe, at least when you lack food.

I don't really care too much. Do what you like. I prefer mixed builds and I think it works very well against the AI.

[Jey]

Grotzel lähetti viestin:

Someone get the Commissar in here, the lads are fighting again! ;)

What did I just say?
Call the Wyrdvane Psykers, not the commissar!

[Grotzel]

Jey lähetti viestin:

Grotzel lähetti viestin:

Someone get the Commissar in here, the lads are fighting again! ;)

What did I just say?
Call the Wyrdvane Psykers, not the commissar!

You'd trust the word of a psyker over the word of a commissar? Someone, get an inquisitor in here, quick! :)

[ssumbra]

TemplarGR lähetti viestin:

ssumbra lähetti viestin:

I have so far played mostly ig and i can safely say that while some people seem to think comissar is great, i personally found him not worth it. Just skip heroes entirely until your position is secured, the tank commander is better anyway since he comes in with a leman russ. You can safely skip tempestus scions and ratlings. The thing you cant sleep on though is heavy weapons teams. These guys are absolutely insane, they do insane damage against anything, coupled with 3 range. Rush vehicles, build 2-3 chimeras and spam heavy weapons, usually 4-6 with your starting inf if you can keep it. That plus 2-3 cogbois and a devil dog when you can get one will get you very far.

Basically, you ignore infantry and focus on those shinny vehicles, that's your problem, but unless you get a heavy-ore start, you are playing unoptimally.

Explain how a Lord Comissar "is not worth it"? He is one of the cheapest (if not the cheapest, can't tell from memory) heroes in the game. His cost is pathetic and you can spawn multiple easily. He is not powerful on his own, he is a support hero, he is supposed to multiply the effectiveness of nearby infantry. So the reason you are finding him "not worth it" is because you are not using infantry.... Yet if you take a look at his abilities, you can see that infantry boosted by a Comissar can be an effective force even late in the game. He gives a passive boost to accuracy to nearby units, accuracy=damage. He can give significant armor piercing boost to nearby units every 3 turns as well. Last but not least, he can also give a HUGE morale boost in a HUGE area just by sacrificing an infantry model, preferably from a guardsman or scion unit nearby.... Morale is a big issue for most AM units. Lord Commissar makes sure to mitigate it. Basically, Commissar counters all AM infantry weaknesses. Lack of proper armor piercing, poor accuracy, low morale. Add to that that since he is not supposed to be fighting on his own, you can use his item slots for more support items instead. You only need to give him the usual defensive triplet (+3 armor, +3 hit points, double healing rate). At lvl 6 he can ressurect, and his passive aura can work even when placed inside a Chimera (a trait unique for him only). So basically, as long as commissars are next to your infantry, they can fight closer to how infantry of other factions can fight.

Also, why skip scions and ratlings? I am not saying they are mandatory, but they are pretty useful especially in the early game when your vehicles lack anti-infantry punch. Scions are basically the chad version of Guardsmen, and they can be suprisingly effective vs vehicles as well, especially with a Commissar. In fact, while i don't play AM much, in most of the games i do i prefer to skip Heavy Weapons teams and rush to Scions instead. Far more flexible and earlier in the game they don't have much armor to face anyway.

The way you play with AM, means that all an opponent has to do to destroy you every time, is to spam anti-vehicle infantry. That's it. And he is going to have a tier advantage too, because vehicles, especially the really powerful ones that can eliminate infantry in cover easily, come much later in the game. Yes it is cool if you like the shinny shinny vehicles, but you are playing unoptimally and give bad advice.

You completely and uterly ignored the fact that the biggest unit i simped for was heavy weapons squads. Why do i ignore scions and ratlings? because they arent as good as heavy weapons teams. Why ignore the comissar when hes "so cheap"? because i find that ignoring him and rushing heavy weapons teams plus chimeras and cogbros is the best option for me. No someone spamming anti-vehicle infantry dosnt counter me and the fact you even say that guard early vehicles are not anti-infantry is baffling to me. Chimera with 2 guys inside will do huge dmg to infantry, better than what guardsmen do for sure. My heavy weapons teams can shred trough anything, they are in my humblest of opinions, the best unit in the guard roster. I dont get why youd skip them the same you said about skiping the other things, they simply are better in terms of dmg than scions that much is certain plus 3 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ range, that is so massive since you can kite cities. Scions require other techs and boosts to be effective, HWT stand on their own as absolute chads, they simply require other very good units to force the enemy to engage so u can safely obliterate them. If i spam vehicles against your build you wont be able to fend me off tough, not when i have cogbois faster than you get your medpacks plus wheres your anti armor? i get it you get kraks but i can repair that dmg and u cant use it for a while. I use heavy weapons teams to take down most targets, chimeras are there for soaking up punishement but they also do very good dmg. When you said previously that infantry can be tanky and everything, i get what your saying, but scions arent very good against vehicles and the 1 use krak grenade has a cooldown, same with medpack. Meanwhile, cogbros can repair ♥♥♥♥ every turn, plus the tank guys abilities are insane when you also remember that yeah hes on a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ leman russ.

I respect your build, i truly do, we all have our manners of playing the game. But you seem to trash mine and i dont like that, especially when heavy weapons teams are so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ good, dont do my bois dirty their inf too, just what you like. If youd pair them with the gryns their absolutely insane. Dont go around saying your build is the only one tough, thats wht i got from your comments, maybe i missinterpreted tough, but i respect your thing and i fully understand that it is a viable strategy, just not the only one.