Is the Astra Militarum Devil Dog underpowered?

[AlphariusOmegon87]

I guess I just can't find a good use for this tank, anyone else having any problems with it?

[Jey]

It's cheap, it's tanky, it destroys infantry.

[AlphariusOmegon87]

Ah, more of an infantry killer then?

[Cursed Hawkins]

Originally posted by AlphariusOmegon87:

Ah, more of an infantry killer then?

Given that it does have a Multi-Melta it likely has its uses against light tanks maybe medium tanks as well.

[AlphariusOmegon87]

Originally posted by Cursed Hawkins:

Originally posted by AlphariusOmegon87:

Ah, more of an infantry killer then?

Given that it does have a Multi-Melta it likely has its uses against light tanks maybe medium tanks as well.

Right on bro, I'll give her another shot then! I really dig the added mobility of it, if nothing else

[Jey]

It doesn't have a Multi-Melta, it has a Melta cannon. Which has blast.

The Devil Dog is here to kill high-armor infantry (or really any infantry).

It's also cheap and tanky, which makes it okay at killing non-dedicated AT tanks.

You'll die if you face a swarm of Predators, but you're tanky enough to survive the average tank.

You add a few techpriests, maybe a Tank Commander, and you're good to go.

[Etrusco]

Devil Dogs are quite niche, they a relatively low tech unit ideal against elite infantry. For example you want to fire against infantry with at least 3 models and 8+ armor. If the enemy infantry has 4+ models Basilisk will out damage it at 6 range, unless the target has 6+ armor then the Devil should come ahead barely as long as you don't use the Basilisk Heavy Bolter, if you do it will out damage the Devil Dog even against infantry with 9 armor (while costing the same).

It's a unique low tier anti elite/high tier infantry unit, sadly more often enough dealing with infantry is not exactly your main problem with Astra, BUT if you want a vehicle with 44% more HP than a Chimera that's only 50% more expensive (this is incorrect is 44% more expensive not 50%) but can be effective later on in the game against elite infantry Devil Dog is your guy.

Personally I don't like it because at tier IV you have 2 very important tech options, Extraction Quotas and Hotshot Power Packs, let's not forget Imperial Bastion can be an interesting choice and Substructure Extension sometimes is a necessity. It is hard to justify delaying the Leman Russ to get an extra Tier IV that does not solve our problems, lack of damage against single targets with vehicles until the Leman Russ arrives.

[TaurusBully]

IMO pretty much what Etrusco said.

[DrainoMyBraino]

Good for heavy infantry and as an early game partner w/ your tank commander.

[archelonian]

I agree with Etrusco. If you go vehicles, AM already have the Hydra and the Basilisk. While it is okay in some situations, it feels like a bit of a miss to me.

Would love to see it changed to around the same tier as the Leman Russ and make it a dedicated anti-single (remove blast) unit that is relatively fragile for its tier (to compensate for higher single target damage) as its flavor text indicates. AM has plenty of early game options, they need more late game diversity.

[Jey]

Sure make hydras and basilisk, and see you frontline melt when the first bolts are shot.

Devil Dog are a frontline unit which can take a lot more punishment than Hydras.

[Etrusco]

Originally posted by Jey:

Sure make hydras and basilisk, and see you frontline melt when the first bolts are shot.

Devil Dog are a frontline unit which can take a lot more punishment than Hydras.

It depends really, rule of thump is against tier 1-4 anti armor units like heavy destroyers, devastators, tankbustas, etc Devil Dogs are going to soak 1 extra hit and against lighter units it gets a lot more complex so let's be super generous and say 50% more hits.

Just by cost, for every 2 Devil Dogs you could have 3 Chimera/Hydras. 2 Devil Dogs end up having the same total HP than the other 3 guys but they do have +1 armor and less damage (until you face high tier infantry).

Against the AI I find the devil dogs awful, the AI always go for kills and they just ignore the Devil Dogs, plus when you have the Dogs they will have Tier 5-6 vehicles and that's straight not fun for your tanky guys.

Against humans with the current patch and how easy it is to skip early tier units and reach those wonderful tier 5-6 units I'm still not a fan of the Devil Dogs. They are kind of cheap until you look at the Leman Russ, for just 25% more cost/upkeep they are so much better at tanking than the Devil Dog that is not even fair.

Edit: they are VERY cost effective against late game heavy infantry, Devil Dog is quite an unique unit, but it feels awful if you don't use it against the right targets.

[Jey]

it gets a lot more complex so let's be super generous and say 50% more hits.

When you have +50% HP and +1 armor saying "You can take 50% more hits" isn't generous and certainly not "super generous". It's just... What it means to have +50% HP.

Originally posted by Etrusco:

Just by cost, for every 2 Devil Dogs you could have 3 Chimera/Hydras.

No, because production cost doesn't scale linearly with resource cost.
You will spend as much ore, but way more production (In this specific setting, it's 24 more production, so the equivalent of one turn of 4 buildings), that is to say time. And time is usually the key restricting factor.

So you can have 7 Hydras or 6 Devil Dogs. Which is not that much difference in terms of quantity.

the AI always go for kills and they just ignore the Devil Dogs

Prevent them from ignoring them by having the devil dogs on first line? If they move all their units near your devil dogs to kill hydras that are behind, it means they waste rapid fire, it means long range units get close to your units. It means that the counterattack will be swift and violent.

they will have Tier 5-6 vehicles and that's straight not fun for your tanky guys.

What kills a Devil Dog kills Hydras even faster.

Against humans with the current patch and how easy it is to skip early tier units and reach those wonderful tier 5-6 units

If you can reach Leman Russ before the enemy knocks at your door, good for you, definitely skip the Devil Dog.
But in my games, if you try to reach Leman Russ with only hydras/chimeras, you get annihilated. The Devil Dog is an incredible boon to AM vehicle builds.

[TaurusBully]

Gosh, how did you survive before this dlc?

[Jey]

Originally posted by TaurusBully:

Gosh, how did you survive before this dlc?

You didn't.

[adozu]

I just want to add that "anti high armor infantry" isn't as niche as it sounds when space marines and chaos space marines have 8 armor infantry straight out the box, necrons will have 8 armor on any infantry higher than t1 and tau have XV8 on t4. All great targets for DD.