Is Haruspex of Tyranid op or a trash? Or is it just mediocre?

[Spiral]

I found many people believe that Haruspex is not very good compared with Carnifex or Lictors, yes its damage is really low. But how about its life steal ability? I found without any technology it can beat Leman Russ, TX7 Hammerhead and Dunecrawler in solo, and finally with almost full health. Whit full upgrades(especially tier 7 technology thresher scythe) it can even beat Disintegrator and XV104 in solo. Against vehicles or monstrous creatures its damage is not as low as it looks like because it is mainly melee damage (ignore ranged damage reduce) and have high AP, the most important thing is that it can continue to fight in the residual blood state. So maybe it can be used as Exocrine's shield (they use the same upgrade)? I felt infantry units of tyranid are too easy to die in a war of attrition.

[Sevens]

Late in the game I use them as a meat shield. They take a nice beating and replenish themselves quite fast. I never choose them first though, that honor goes to Carny, Lictor, and the tunnel monster.

[Spiral]

Originally posted by Sevens:

Late in the game I use them as a meat shield. They take a nice beating and replenish themselves quite fast. I never choose them first though, that honor goes to Carny, Lictor, and the tunnel monster.

yes it's a very good meat shield. I found you can win a very hard solo game only with Termagants, Haruspex, Exocrine and other heroes and tropes, and it's very easy. Many times you can finish the tier 7 technology thresher scythe before you encounter the enemy. The Carnifex needs too many weapon upgrades, while Haruspex and Exocrine only need one.

[Jey]

Originally posted by Spiral:

I found you can win a very hard solo game only with Termagants, Haruspex, Exocrine and other heroes and tropes, and it's very easy.

You can do the same without Haruspex.

The Carnifex needs too many weapon upgrades, while Haruspex and Exocrine only need one.

An unupgraded Carnifex deals more damage than an upgraded Haruspex.

you can finish the tier 7 technology thresher scythe before you encounter the enemy.

Because the AI is slow.

I found without any technology it can beat Leman Russ, TX7 Hammerhead and Dunecrawler in solo

You can't beat a hammerhead in solo, because the hammerhead moves faster than the Haruspex.
Other than that, who cares about 1v1s? It never happens. When you have 4 Haruspex struggling to get melee tiles, the Hammerheads will have focus-fire one haruspex down, giving themselves more HP and damage, and if they're a bit cheeky, having protected the damage hammerheads behind the full life ones.
Dunecrawlers will be healed by a Manipulus and buffed by the Imperative. Leman Russes will be buffed and healed by TechPriest and/or buffed by a Tank Commander and your Haruspex will get trashed.

Meat shields are only good if they are cheap (like Guardsmen with medipack). Haruspex is too expensive and can be replaced with Carnifex with no drawbacks (a dead enemy can't hit you, so you don't need to regen HP).

Everytime you win with Haruspex, you would have won even harder with Carnifex.

[Spiral]

Originally posted by Jey:

An unupgraded Carnifex deals more damage than an upgraded Haruspex.

Yes. But the damage of the Carnifex relies on its ability, otherwise its damage is not so excellent when fighting against the vehicle, and its hp is not high, its not a shield but a weapon. If let me choose a melee weapon I prefer Lictors.

Originally posted by Jey:

You can't beat a hammerhead in solo, because the hammerhead moves faster than the Haruspex.

yes. I don't consider movement in the test. But if Hammerhead retreat, it can't beat Haruspex, too. In real combat you can't always retreat, the enemy won't always give you that chance.

Originally posted by Jey:

Other than that, who cares about 1v1s? It never happens. When you have 4 Haruspex struggling to get melee tiles, the Hammerheads will have focus-fire one haruspex down, giving themselves more HP and damage, and if they're a bit cheeky, having protected the damage hammerheads behind the full life ones.

Maybe. But for me it is interesting to compare units in different factions, and it can reflect some strength of them. And why you only build Haruspex? What about Extorine? What about your heroes and zoantropes? Yes you can focus on one Haruspex and get it down. But if your remaining firepower is not enough for you to kill another one, what will you do? When comparing Carnifex and Haruspex, this is subtle.

Originally posted by Jey:

Meat shields are only good if they are cheap (like Guardsmen with medipack). Haruspex is too expensive and can be replaced with Carnifex with no drawbacks (a dead enemy can't hit you, so you don't need to regen HP).

No. That's not the only standard. Meat shield is meat shield because of its hp, armor and ability. I think for IG Maraunder Bomber is a good meat shield for Thunderbolt, isn't that so? And some space marines' heroes are also meat shields. Guardsmen and Termagants are more cannon fodder rather than a real meat shield.


Haruspex and Carnifex are different roles. Maybe everyone's game style is different, using Carnifex is more like using Lictors. Yes Haruspex is weak without upgrade, but for me Haruspex is more likable. Because you rarely need to care about their health, they are less likely to be forced to withdraw from the battle and make your defense weak, and you can use your Tervigon's ability on your heroes more often. For Haruspex, either die or recover from the blood of the enemy.

[Stormfox]

The issue with the Haruspex is twofold:

One, the Carnifex is only slightly worse but available from the start. Instead of getting two upgrades to keep the Carni relevant, you might as well research the Haruspex, though. Still, I would usually suggest doing neither.

Second and more importantly, the Exocrine exists. And that one is such a nice all-rounder that at the same time gives you anti-armor and a consistent range 2 unit that it is hard to recommend anything else in that price and tech range. It is the perfect spam unit to build your army core around. The Haruspex can't really compete with that.

[Spiral]

Originally posted by Stormfox:

Second and more importantly, the Exocrine exists. And that one is such a nice all-rounder that at the same time gives you anti-armor and a consistent range 2 unit that it is hard to recommend anything else in that price and tech range. It is the perfect spam unit to build your army core around. The Haruspex can't really compete with that.

yes, the Exocrine is great, but the problem with tyranid is that it lacks heal methods. Tervigon is the only hero with heal ability but its price is high, and making Tyrant with influence is better. One solution is reclaiming low health units, but it costs influence and time. It also makes your army low level. Exocrine's viability is not very good, so I mainly use Haruspex alongwith Termagant to bear the damage. Haruspex has reached a balance between damage and survivability. It is very useful when attacking the city or being shot by overwatch. Of course, if your economy can bear the losses on the front line, Haruspex is unnecessary.

[adozu]

Haruspex is, unironically, the worst unit in the game.

Sincerely,

a very long time nid player.

[Spiral]

Originally posted by adozu:

Haruspex is, unironically, the worst unit in the game.

maybe, it can be bad, it depends on your combat environment and technology.
but I think it is far from the worst unit. For me Haruspex is better than Carnifex in many instances if I choose monstrous creature. As I said, it's mainly because Tyranid lacks heal ability compared with other factions.
And I think the worst unit in the game is AX39 Sun Shark Bomber. And maybe TX4 Piranha. I just find it's hard to use them.

[TemplarGR]

It is one of the best units the Tyranids have, when used properly. Do not listen to those who say it is garbage, they are playing the game under specific conditions that do not allow for Haruspex to show its potential, and since they only play this way, they insist that the unit is worthless and refuse to simply understand that very fast 1vs1 multiplayer games are not really balanced in Gladius (that is why most of those play modded anyway).

Yes the main defining characteristic is his life steal ability. As long as it can keep attacking and do high damage to vehicles,monsters/buildings, it can withstand tons of punishment and needs to be focused fired to be killed. Having 2-3 of them attacking high priority targets and/or cities, while the other Tyranids units support them from behind, can be very powerful because in such situations Haruspex turn essentially into a meat shield/frontline for Tyranids.

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by adozu:

Haruspex is, unironically, the worst unit in the game.

Sincerely,

a very long time nid player.

No, it is not. It is a great unit, and no offense, but you are no authority on Tyranids. Especially considering you can't see Haruspex's value. Get off your high horse.

[TemplarGR]

Originally posted by Stormfox:

The issue with the Haruspex is twofold:

One, the Carnifex is only slightly worse but available from the start. Instead of getting two upgrades to keep the Carni relevant, you might as well research the Haruspex, though. Still, I would usually suggest doing neither.

Second and more importantly, the Exocrine exists. And that one is such a nice all-rounder that at the same time gives you anti-armor and a consistent range 2 unit that it is hard to recommend anything else in that price and tech range. It is the perfect spam unit to build your army core around. The Haruspex can't really compete with that.

Carnifex without upgrades is SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE than Haruspex. I don't understand why people insist on such a lie, especially considering comparing their stats is very easy.... The main issue Carnifex has, is it is far squishier than Haruspex, and without the life stealing. That means that by the time you can spam Carnifexes, other players can spam equivalent vehicles and/or anti-armor as well. And Carnifex can fall easily to such units because of its low hp and lack of life steal and repairs/heals (except Tervigon).

The reason multiplayer focused players prefer Carnifexes is because they can gain access to them faster, they are cheaper, and they are better equipped to deal with infantry, which is more likely to be encountered earlier in the game, in comparison with Haruspex which is mostly a single target unit. Multiplayer Gladius typically has people spamming a specific unit as fast as possible since it is more efficient. And since Carnifex is cheaper, available faster, and more useful vs earlier units, and upgradeable more vs later units with research, it is ideal for multiplayer.

But if you can remove the blinders and understand Haruspex's role, and use it in that role, you will find out it is a great unit. Like most balancing issues in this game, it is an economy problem, not a unit problem (same with Lictors, which got extremely expensive in this beta patch, equivalent to Tyranofexes, just because multiplayer people spammed them fast).

[Jey]

Originally posted by Spiral:

And I think the worst unit in the game is AX39 Sun Shark Bomber. And maybe TX4 Piranha. I just find it's hard to use them.

The Sun Shark Bomber at least can one-hit most infantry units and is immune to melee.
It's still very bad, but you can find it a niche (like facing a Nids spamming Lictors, or something).

The Piranha is a very strong unit, it moves fast for reconnaissance, it has jink to tank a bit OW, it has drones every 5 turns (the main feature!), and it has an early range 2 okay-ish damage against tank to support fire warriors. It also gets 2 seeker missiles and buff Hammerhead (like all vehicles, but instead of needing to put two hammerheads next to each other, you can use a Piranha to allow your hammerhead to hit someone else), making it relevant even at T6+.

Meanwhile Haruspex has +6 HP, needs more tech and deal significantly less damage than Carnifex making its lifesteal pathetic.
Myeah.

[adozu]

Originally posted by Spiral:

Originally posted by adozu:

Haruspex is, unironically, the worst unit in the game.

maybe, it can be bad, it depends on your combat environment and technology.
but I think it is far from the worst unit. For me Haruspex is better than Carnifex in many instances if I choose monstrous creature. As I said, it's mainly because Tyranid lacks heal ability compared with other factions.
And I think the worst unit in the game is AX39 Sun Shark Bomber. And maybe TX4 Piranha. I just find it's hard to use them.

The sun shark is a niche unit but it has some uses. It just comes a bit late for what it does.

Piranhas are extremely useful, for the price you get one of the best scouts in the game and once you get seeker missiles if you still have a few around they can contribute some ok damage during engagements.

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Originally posted by adozu:

Haruspex is, unironically, the worst unit in the game.

Sincerely,

a very long time nid player.

No, it is not. It is a great unit, and no offense, but you are no authority on Tyranids. Especially considering you can't see Haruspex's value. Get off your high horse.

I am right though.

Carnifex is better than haruspex in any practical application. Haruspex damage is just so abysmal even when a bug gave it 14AP making haruspex was actively detrimental to your roster.

When is haruspex ever going to be better than any alternative?

Vs AI you are better off cheesing science to get to high tiers and skip them entirely rather than roleplay a faction that has a frontline. Vs players you have a unit in the frontline that won't kill anything and will block tiles for units that might have actually had a chance to. And you paid 80 for the privilege of having a unit with predator defense and slightly above average regen assuming people don't focus them down in 1 turn (spoiler they probably will)

PS: "very fast small map" is something i don't play, i play 95% standard 5% fast.

Here's what i think: any situation in which haruspex does a good job is one you would have crushed with literally anything else.

[Spiral]

Originally posted by Jey:

The Sun Shark Bomber at least can one-hit most infantry units and is immune to melee.

Have you done any tests before reaching a conclusion? How can it at least one-hit MOST infantry units? It can't one-hit TSM even. And it can only damage Lictors half health PER 3 turns.

Originally posted by Jey:

The Piranha is a very strong unit

It's gun drones are good. But the raw damage of it's weapon is only 3. In early stage you don't need this weapon because the enemies you encountered are mainly infantries with multiple members. Nevertheless, its cost is low, and it has a gun drone. I will try it.

Originally posted by Jey:

Meanwhile Haruspex has +6 HP, needs more tech and deal significantly less damage than Carnifex making its lifesteal pathetic.

It needs two techs, one for itself one for weapon, and that weapon is also for Exotrine. No more than Carnifex. The damage of Haruspex to vehicle is about one fourth lower than Carnifex. Here is the test:
Without any ungrade:
To TSM: Carnifex 6.6 Haruspex 4.7 To Leman Russ: Carnifex 6.8 Haruspex 5.6
With all upgrades:
To TSM: Carnifex 13.2 Haruspex 6.3 To Leman Russ: Carnifex 12.7 Haruspex 9.9

They all have an ability can enhance their damage about 1/2 per 3 turns, Haruspex has additional abilities of Strikedown and Acid Blood (without tech). When all are upgraded, Haruspex will also has an additional ability Hammer of Wrath. But that is a t9 tech, maybe a little late.

One fourth damage and enhanced anti-infanty ability to 100% life steal ability and 6 hp(one fifth), that's the deal.

[adozu]

Techs have different tiers.

Haruspex requires a tech to unlock (t4), a tech to buff (t7) and hammer of wrath (t9)

Carnifex requires a weapon tech on t5 and t6.

Realistically you can start making carnifex earlier and by the time you have a few on the front you should be done fully upgrading them, and the upgrades are significant. This in turn makes carnifex one of the hardest hitting unit in your roster when battering ram is ready.

Meanwhile haruspex can get a minor damage buff on t7 when you could be teching Trygons instead, a *far* superior unit. Or you could be teching air. Or anything else really.

So on t6, which should roughly be when the first serious engagements are happening, you can have your carnifex 2 shot light vehicles, 1 shot once morale breaks, while also devastating most infantry... Or you could have haruspex without upgrades tickling them, But hey, you get like 4 hp back, sweet.

On the topic of the bomber:

It can summon "pathfinder" drones with overcharge option. They shred any low armor infantry groups. The issue is not much of that at that tier, otherwise the unit would be perfectly ok.

EDIT: also, just for fun, carnifex has "pinning" on its range 2 weapon, so it can claim to have better support utilities than haruspex.