How do you deal with high armor/heavy units as Mechanicus?

[Johnny John Johnson]

None of the Mechanicus units until very late in the game have weapons that are suited for destroying tanks, cities, generally vehicular units with high health/armor, it's all radiation and flame weapons which are great against infantry and bad against anything else. I typically just have to swarm things with Vanguards and Sulphurhounds while using Ironstriders to soften them up from afar. There has to be some way of dealing with enemy armor for the Mechanicus that I'm not seeing yet.

[Zaxori]

You use the Tech-Priest Manipulus' ability Galvanic Field to give someone armour penetration. By the time you run into tank units, you should have either Kastelan Robots, Onager DuneCrawlers, or Fulgurite electro-Priests. Those all have a bit more dps to them. Pour some more effort into your research so you can research it faster. This factions economy is nuts if you carefully place your buildings and have multiple captials.

[Bakeneko]

Very early game the Datasmith can work as a stopgap anti-armour unit. Both their gamma pistol and power fist have good armour penetration, and the dataspike causes haywire.

[fmalfeas]

Skitari Vanguard have attack in the range of Eldar Guardians. So have the Manipulus give them armor penetration, and tech as quick as you can to getting the disintegrator tank.

[ulzgoroth]

Originally posted by Bakeneko:

Very early game the Datasmith can work as a stopgap anti-armour unit. Both their gamma pistol and power fist have good armour penetration, and the dataspike causes haywire.

Yeah, wondered the same thing until I realized Datasmiths are loaded for tank-busting.

[Stardustfire]

dune crawlers have a insane dmg output no matter the enemy type, and they are cheap as crap for what they deliver, just build a few and you have stupid easy field domniation even vs enemy tanks, i kicked Necron behinds with them early game with no problems. so im happy they make them cost more. 4 weapon systems plus that durabilty was to much for so less resources needed.
clip like already sayed here the priest heros to them for more accurary and armor piercing and you are more than good.

[TemplarGR]

Dunecrawlers do not have "insane damage output no matter the enemy type", this is incorrect. I see people keep repeating the same lie on these forums....

All default weapons of the Dunecralwers have Skyfire. That means, that they get a -33% accuracy penalty vs ground units that aren't skimmers. This in practice means -33% damage.

Also, if you look at the 3+1 weapons the Dunecrawlers have, they are nothing to write home about. Pretty pathetic actually, especially vs armor. The icarus autocannon deals 4 damage with 2 attacks with 2 penetration at 10 accuracy (that gets butchered vs ground units). The Daedauls missile launcher deals 4 damage with 1 attack, 8 accuracy and 6 penetration. Again, it has skyfire, so accuracy drops like a rock vs ground units. The gatling rocket launcher deals 3 damage and 5 attacks, but at 2 armor penetration and 8 accuracy. Again, skyfire, so vs ground targets it sucks. And you can add a tiny weapon with an upgrade that has 0 armor penetration, 1.5 damage, and 3 attacks.... No skyfire at least....

Is this damage output "insane"? No. NO. Seriously no, stop spreading this misconception on these forums. It is ok to make a mistake but keep repeating it just makes people believe falsehoods about the game. This output is great vs air units and skimmers and the like, and "decent" vs ground units. Obviously if someone plays vs factions like the Eldar or the Tau, the Dunecrawler may seem amazing since it doesn't get the skyfire penalties vs many of their ground units. Hell, Tau even have jetpack battlesuits.... But against a normal ground battleforce the Dunecrawler is just "ok".

For example a Leman Russ tank has more serious anti-armor firepower and can hit ground targets much better. It it also tankier itself. And after the patch it is going to cost the same anyway.

[Stardustfire]

@Templar better get the basics youself before call others wrong, imp tanks fall as fast as antigrav units to dunecrawlers, and hey want to know something? imp tanks dont fly or hover, and still get a big punch in the face from dunecrawlers. you even confirmed yourself that Dunecrawler are overpowered, because you take a imp tech of much higher research level and much more ccost as a counter example. and TS asked about EARLY-, not END-game. when an imp gets lemans, Mechanicus is near knights already.
even a predator pair (to take your call for "equial" level) woud be pulvericed by 2 dunecrawlers. thats no papertheorie thats seen ingame fact.
face it, the made Mechanicus imba overpowered (in way that i expected for eldar instead of there underpowered permanervs)

[Jey]

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

For example a Leman Russ tank has more serious anti-armor firepower and can hit ground targets much better.

False.
Against a 8 armor Predator without any buff or upgrade on either tank, the Onager deals 7.1 damage while the Leman Russ deals 5.6.
Roughly 25% more.

Against a 8 armour Tactical squad (same settings), the Leman Russ deals 6.2 damage while the Onager deals 6.1.
It's good to remember that :
-The Onager ignores cover on half his damage (e.g forests/ruins)
-The Onager has no blast weapon so its damage don't get reduced against Tactical squad (e.g the second hit of a Leman Russ will be 4.2 damage, meaning the Onager deals 50% more damage).

You'd do well to use numbers and facts instead of using theoretical and unsubstantiated opinions.

[fmalfeas]

The failing of the onager is that it's a bit squishy. So you still have to be careful. Tougher than the rifleface thing, but much, MUCH easier to kill than the disintegrator.

[adozu]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

The failing of the onager is that it's a bit squishy. So you still have to be careful. Tougher than the rifleface thing, but much, MUCH easier to kill than the disintegrator.

huh? onager is the 3rd tankiest tank t6 and below (first being lemon and wave serpent)

disintegrator has crazy damage but isn't actually much tankier, about 20% or so.

[Johnny John Johnson]

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

Dunecrawlers do not have "insane damage output no matter the enemy type", this is incorrect. I see people keep repeating the same lie on these forums....

All default weapons of the Dunecralwers have Skyfire. That means, that they get a -33% accuracy penalty vs ground units that aren't skimmers. This in practice means -33% damage.

Also, if you look at the 3+1 weapons the Dunecrawlers have, they are nothing to write home about. Pretty pathetic actually, especially vs armor. The icarus autocannon deals 4 damage with 2 attacks with 2 penetration at 10 accuracy (that gets butchered vs ground units). The Daedauls missile launcher deals 4 damage with 1 attack, 8 accuracy and 6 penetration. Again, it has skyfire, so accuracy drops like a rock vs ground units. The gatling rocket launcher deals 3 damage and 5 attacks, but at 2 armor penetration and 8 accuracy. Again, skyfire, so vs ground targets it sucks. And you can add a tiny weapon with an upgrade that has 0 armor penetration, 1.5 damage, and 3 attacks.... No skyfire at least....

Is this damage output "insane"? No. NO. Seriously no, stop spreading this misconception on these forums. It is ok to make a mistake but keep repeating it just makes people believe falsehoods about the game. This output is great vs air units and skimmers and the like, and "decent" vs ground units. Obviously if someone plays vs factions like the Eldar or the Tau, the Dunecrawler may seem amazing since it doesn't get the skyfire penalties vs many of their ground units. Hell, Tau even have jetpack battlesuits.... But against a normal ground battleforce the Dunecrawler is just "ok".

For example a Leman Russ tank has more serious anti-armor firepower and can hit ground targets much better. It it also tankier itself. And after the patch it is going to cost the same anyway.

How do you deal with armor as Mechanicus? Do you just use the Tech Priest Manipulus's Galvanic Field to get some armor penetration?

[fmalfeas]

Originally posted by adozu:

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

The failing of the onager is that it's a bit squishy. So you still have to be careful. Tougher than the rifleface thing, but much, MUCH easier to kill than the disintegrator.

huh? onager is the 3rd tankiest tank t6 and below (first being lemon and wave serpent)

disintegrator has crazy damage but isn't actually much tankier, about 20% or so.

I'm speaking in terms of functionality. Onager was able to be one-turned by a fortress and a predator. Disintegrator couldn't. Which meant that unlike the Onagers, the Manipulus was able to repair the disintegrator. That 20% can be the difference between losing units and a clean win.

[TemplarGR]

No i didn't get any numbers wrong. The dunecrawler is not that great vs ground vehicles. It only has 1 weapon with 6 armor penetration (and that is the weapon with 4 damage, 8 accuracy, and 1 attack), all other weapons have 2 or 0. 3/4 of weapons have skyfire. And their damage is nothing to write home about. You people never admit you are wrong, which is why this little community is filled to the max with misinformation. If you really do not understand how the damage formula works, you should learn about it first. Because the game does not work on opinions, it works on cold hard math formulas and stats, and it is easy to know if a unit deals damage or not.

I am tired of having to repeat myself when the truth is self-evident. People who just won't shut up when they are wrong prove that it is their ego that is the problem, not the data.

A dunecrawler is mediocre vs ground vehicles due to its skyfire accuracy penalty. Any comparable tank will destroy the dunecrawler. Its tankiness is nothing special either, just 8 armor and 36hp, with a 17% damage reduction. It is also slow.... Yes for the Mechanicus it is an important unit because up to it, they get nothing in terms of vehicles, but compared to other units from other factions it can't compete. And that's the truth and it can be demonstrated in-game easily, and on paper using the stats.

[Jey]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

Onager was able to be one-turned by a fortress and a predator.

I'm not sure what the fortress and Predator ate for breakfast but it was definitely not a normal setting.

Originally posted by The clown:

Buddy, I gave you numbers, you go on a rant about people not understanding the formula and spreading misinformation.

They're "cold hard" numbers. Anyone can check them in the game.
You're wrong, admit you underestimated the Onager's damage and go on with...

Originally posted by The clown:

it can be demonstrated in-game easily

Well, date and place?
How do you want to do it? I play AdMech and spam Onagers?
Do you want me to spam Onagers against AI?
Are you going to show us a video of you playing something or another?

Please do expand on that suggestion.

[fmalfeas]

Originally posted by Jey:

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

Onager was able to be one-turned by a fortress and a predator.

I'm not sure what the fortress and Predator ate for breakfast but it was definitely not a normal setting.

They were pretty leveled up thanks to some very silly tomb blades that kept zipping in to get blown up on overwatch (that's how I found that fortress, I was scouting around and tried to go after the tomb blade...which got away, but was soon followed by another one, like the necrons had set a rally point there). So I suspect there was very little in the way of accuracy reduction.