Do Tyranids have a dominant unit at all - aside from the heroes and Scythed Hierodule?

[Lampros]

Their non-hero/non-gargantuan units all look mediocre? I recall several posts praising Lictors, but in my testing they go down to every comparable unit (e.g. Terminator, Wraithblades, Obliterators, et al.)?

[Jey]

RoboEmperor님이 먼저 게시:

Last I checked Haruspex cost 120biomass not 80 biomass .

Nah, Haruspex have always been at 80. Only Exocrines and Tfex are at 120.

No dude, you only prove the other player is better than me at playing the game, this doesn't mean that he is better at analysing the game balance than me

Alright so you can analyze game balance better than the whole discord community (There are a lot of controversial opinions on the discord. Haruspex being the trashiest unit in the game is not one.), but you can't play a turn-by-turn game (heavily based on making the best choices through analyzing what you have) better than me (who is not even one of the best players)?

M'kay. Let's say that it makes sense and that you're not a complete circus.

We could do something else. A 1v1 vs AI, or FFA, whatever suits you, with a set difficulty?
You start the game with whatever settings, save immediately and share the save, and we see... Who wins the fastest? Who has the better ratio of unit killed/units lost?

[Jey]

RoboEmperor님이 먼저 게시:

Do you even build carnifexes this late? I don't because overwatch is that important/devastating.

It depends.
If you're at the point of making Tfex, definitely no. You'll make.... Tfex....

Skipping Exocrines is possible, depending on the match up. I can think of scenarios where you don't really care for the overwatch or the range, and prefer the cheaper Carnifex with their two upgrades.
But admittedly, I will... Let's say 70% of the time? Make Exocrines as soon as I can and stop making Carnifex. But then again, it's rare to see Exocrines in PvP, you usually win or lose before in 1v1 or 2v2 on standard speed.

[TemplarGR]

RoboEmperor님이 먼저 게시:

TemplarGR님이 먼저 게시:

Keep your insults to yourselves. Haruspex is a decent unit and i proved it with examples and math. Using special niche use cases like "a tiny map free for all besieged by 2-3 ais at turn 20" is not the way to judge unit balance.

I mean yeah, at such an early point in the game it makes no sense to focus on Haruspex since it is more useful for surviving fights than dealing damage, but this does not make it a bad unit. You are talking turn 20 and you are judging a Haruspex based on that? Are you serious?

At this point i consider your posts trolling because you are using specific niche scenarios to prove that a unit is "bad", while in fact it can be proven that the unit is good if used properly.

Let me give you this scenario:

Assume that 2 players, 1 has an army of Carnifexes and Exocrines, and the other has an army of Haruspexes and Exocrines. Carnifexes and Haruspexes cost the same, so assume same numbers. Which is gonna win and why?

If you are a smart betting man, your money is on the Haruspex + Exocrine army, not on the Carnifex, simply because the Haruspexes will be regenerating tons of HP each turn, plus they have +20% hp.

And yes i used to be a pro-tier player and thus i tend to figure out these stuff pretty easily, don't be angry at me. And leave out the name calling please.

A pro player tries to get more with less. As in if he can get away with less, he does just that.

Last I checked Haruspex cost 120biomass not 80 biomass so they're 50% more expensive than Carnifexes. But I havent' been keeping up with gladius lately so lets assume its true. That Haruspex and Carnifex cost the same.

First, who wins carnifex+exocrine vs carnifex+haruspex? The answer is pure exocrine. Because overwatch is that good. The only reason you have a carnifex + exocrine army in the first place is because it takes time to get the exocrines out. Once biomass is the limiting factor of your exocrine production you consume your carnifexes, especially the wounded ones to continue exocrine production.

Second, Haruspex cannot handle vehicles. Carnifexes can. So you need Carnifexes even when using haruspexes. But by your own admission, upgraded Carnifexes are superior in everyway. I'm gonna go ahead and say bone mace alone makes Carnifexes superior in everyway. So pure carnifexes > haruspex + carnifex. Why exactly did you waste your t4 research on haruspexes?

Third, since we agree fully upgraded Carnifex beats Haruspex, why exactly do you think a haruspex + exocrine army would beat a carnifex + exocrine army?

Fourth, if haruspexes were even remotely useful, I would've used them in my game because I needed every little oomph I can get to beat these AIs. But I did use haruspex when i got him for free from the quest. And he was absolutely ****ing worthless.

Fifth, I skipped infantry and stayed alive long enough for Carnifexes by microing Tervigon and Prime. See this? This is what a competiive player does. If he knows he can get away without going infantry and only heroes, he does. A noncompetitive player however goes out of his way to get a worthless unit taht gets truly obsolete within 1 research tier.

so I'm gonna ask the same thing as Iffu did. Put your money where your mouth is and play against him PvP.

1) Haruspex is 80 biomass and 4 upkeep, same as Carnifex. Exocrine, Trygon, and Tyrannofex are 120 and 6 upkeep, and Scythed Hierodule is 320 and 16 upkeep.

2) My example was mostly to demonstrate the tank-capability of Haruspex. Yes, spamming Exocrines and dumping both Carnifexes and Haruspexes altogether can seem better on paper. But Exocrines cost 50% more than Haruspex and have no self heal, meaning that they have to fend with 36hp and 8 armor vs the typically heavy firepower of their tier. If you are playing vs AI that is generally dumb tactically it can seem efficient, but a proper human will see your Exocrine spam and respond with tanks backed up by repair engineers (or Terminators+Apothecaries), good luck facing that with a pure Exocrine army. You need meat shields to keep the Exocrines healthy and termagants from Tervigon die too easily in the late game to be of any true value (outside of buffing the enemy experience levels). Haruspex is 33% cheaper than Exocrine and can self heal, you need a few of those plus some current tier infantry like Lictors, not pure Exocrines.

3) I never "admitted" that Haruspexes cannot handle vehicles. In fact, i proved the exact opposite previously on this thread. On 1vs1 scenarios Carnifexes can barely escape with their lives vs most tanks while Haruspexes will not only kill the enemy tank but most likely have full hp after the fight. People seriously need to understand the concept of "i am not the only one shooting at the enemy, on his turn the enemy shoots back at me". Because for some reason it seems to me i am having a discussion with people who seem to think only pure damage values matter for units and nothing else. If pure damage was king in this game, you wouldn't need super-units in the late game. Guess why you need them, because they are tanky and can live after taking fire... Carnifex is a glass cannon, Haruspex at the same cost as Carnifex can live for longer if he keeps attacking and has 20% more hp.

4) Apparently you got a single Haruspex from the quest in a single game and you concluded it is useless. Care to be more specific? What units did the enemy AI use? Was it masses of infantry? Why would a Haruspex do well vs masses of infantry? Is this its niche? The reason the quest gives you a Haruspex is because the next stage brings an invasion of heavily armored neutrals that your normal infantry non-penetrating units can't scratch easily. So you get the Haruspex as an aid to complete the next stage of the quest.

5) You assume too much about the way i am playing the game. Guess what, i am doing the Prime + Tervigon thing at the start of each game as well, it is not rocket science, vs the AI you don't need to build anything else prior most of the time. You said nothing new to me. If you are not running the risk of getting rushed by an enemy player at the first stage of the game (especially with lots of neutrals), there is no reason to make units. In fact in most of my games i eat all 3 starting termagants for biomass as well. Prime + Tervigon can be all you need for the initial stage. In fact, i am not sure you need to make Carnifexes either, i usually only make a couple if at all and rush to make Haruspexes + Exocrines + Ravenners instead. That way i avoid researching 2 useless techs to boost the carnifexes and get far better units at the same time. Again, if you are not getting rushed and allowed to turtle, Carnifexes are a waste of time.

[Dr. Jesus]

Haruspex are super good actually. Imagine using haruspex to cap outposts around the map. How many units would they need to send to deal with that per haruspex? In a vacuum haruspex wins 1v1's after all. TemplarGR is a true genius. Haruspex need a nerf.

[Jey]

Dr. Purge님이 먼저 게시:

Imagine using haruspex to cap outposts around the map.

Even then, you'd rather use Raveners (or heck, termagants).
Raveners have enough move to flee from most units (AND reaching outposts quickly, of course), are cheaper and can actually kill units.
Meanwhile, Termagants are slow but it's not like you'll miss them if they die.

(And yes I know you're sarcastic. I still want to make it clear it's not even a good reason é_é)

[Cadet]

Haruspex are fine.
Like every other unit they have their role.

Termagaunt supported by heroes are very good, and you can just spam them.

[Jey]

Cadet님이 먼저 게시:

Haruspex are fine.
Like every other unit they have their role.

What useful role do they fill?

[Stardustfire]

Haruspex not even got a role in TT, because it was already bad there...
as little as that means with the sometimes weird convertion to gladius unit stats.

[Cadet]

Iffu님이 먼저 게시:

What useful role do they fill?

They tank better than a Carnifex for the same cost.

[Jey]

Did you read the whole conversation, though?

What good is a 'tanky' unit that deals no damage and take your precious melee slots?
If you had a Carnifex he would have taken as many hits (maybe one less, ok), but he would have dealt tremendous damage to an unit (-> Morale loss. Maybe a kill to give you another precious melee slot -> Less damage taken from the counter-attack)

Even if your goal is to protect the squishy ranged units of your friends (like I don't know, some Basilisk? Or Rangers? They are squishy right?), you're better off with Termagants that are much much cheaper (i.e don't nuke your ally's morale when they die and don't feed the enemy's heroes) and rather difficult to kill en masse, especially if the enemy doesn't have grenades and/or you manage to draw the enemy in the cover.