Anyone else dislike Chaos' design strongly?

[A.J]

Random this, random that.

Random that my ranged units suddenly turn into a melee unit. That unit has a random boon every round.

Chaos is just unfun to play - which sucks because it's one of my favourite factions. It doesn't work in this game though.

[Bizzo]

Originally posted by V8 Man:

Originally posted by RoboEmperor:

P.S. Back to the original topic, I like Chaos as a faction, though it's not my favorite. The Chaos Spawn thing does not happen often enough to bother me, but it does add a bit of tension and caution to how you play the faction.

Punitive and unfun tension that no other faction has to deal with. If chaos Heroes were somehow totally superior in every way to other faction's Heroes then there might be a point with having to be cautious about unleashing their terrible powers too much, but this is not the case. However, even if they were superior, i still thinks its terrible design for the multiplayer experience IMO.

[Major Moolah]

Chaos boons are pretty good and cost no resources, so there needs to be a downside to those. I mean even the most basic one that fully heals you can be very good. They also changed things in the most recent patch and the boons trigger often enough to be reliable.

Having your Chaos Lord spawn out is unfair but that has happened only once to me, ever, in many many hours of play. On the other hand, I will always remember that one Khorne Berserker squad I made that turned into a Daemon Prince when I was in tier 3!

I play games for fun and the system is fun. Nuff said.

[V8 Man]

Originally posted by Major Moolah:

On the other hand, I will always remember that one Khorne Berserker squad I made that turned into a Daemon Prince when I was in tier 3!

Yeah, LOL! I had one of those moments. Totally memorable and fun. I also have had an instance--and just one, thankfully--where I lost a fully tricked-out Chaos Lord. I was disgusted at first--and then, suddenly, I started laughing. Like NoLifeKing00 said above, it was just so fitting for Chaos. To me, it helps to distinguish the faction from others. If the Chaos Spawn thing happened more often than it does, I would really dislike the system. Now, it's just too uncommon in my experience to be much concerned about.

[kaisershinryu]

Honestly Chaos are one of my personal favorite factions. Especially after the most recent update. I find the RNG mechanics fitting for one and a little tension spices up what can otherwise sometimes become a tedius and predictable game. I've never had a personal problem with the spawn mechanic.

Early game the spawn are more useful than some of your average starting units. And it happens so rarely that it hardly ever irrevocably fouls one of your strategies. It's more humurous than anything. On the other hand I played a 2v2 game with a friend and he made no less than 4 Demon Princes over the course of the game. We were laughing so hard.

As for the Heroes. Having played almost every faction I DO find the Chaos Heroes to be a good deal better than many others. The Lord gets super tanky with his damage reduction upgrades and a mark + Icon of Tzeentch or Nurgle and turns into a damn near immortal juggernaut with the addition of the Zoat Hde Jerkin, the Bloat tech, and the Life Steal Sword, never mind boons like Crystalline Body and Mechanoid which are way more reliable to earn after the patch (You can even get multiple in a single turn). And late game with Warp Frenzy and some other boons plus a Concealed Weapon System the Blade of Mourning and the Axe, you can pretty much obliterate anything be it a vehicle or infantry. (Though so can an Orc Warboss I guess but the Warboss is going to have a harder time killing the Chaos Lord who gets way tankier and will probably die for the attempt if the Chaos Lord uses his damage reflection)

For the other heroes, if positioned near the Spider mechs, The Master of Possession's Incursion is so much better than the Necron Lord's summon technique as it has a good chance of making way more useful / powerful units such as Maulerfiends or Helldrakes. And the Warpsmith is an excellent support unit to the Chaos Faction's powerful vehicles, especially now that we have Chaos Land Raiders (which are awesome). Also the Warpsmith can straight nuke a lot of different units with the full upgrade to his laser if he doesn't move before using it.

Yeah I guess liking the heroes means I might be annoyed if one of them turns into a spawn but I've been playing them long enough to get all the chaos achievements (I had the first cultist I made in one of my games turn into a demon prince though right at the start for Apotheosis. That was a fun match) and none of my heroes has spawned out on me yet and one of these games has gone to 220 turns before. But if it does I'd get over it quickly and have a laugh. I play with friends mostly anyways. And when I don't and I'm just versus the AI I can always just reload like Robo Emperor said.

Honestly once I'm done playing all the factions and getting all the achievements, Chaos is probably going to be one of the only ones I come back to the most personally. Tau are annoying to play around because of their utopia mechanic and reliance on drones and influence (But when you DO get going as Tau and get Broadsides, Hammerheads, Riptide Suits, and Storm Surges, it feels amazing). And Necrons were okay but I don't honestly see what all the fuss is about them. I thought their early game units lacked punch and late game was slow and bland with their 2 movement super tanky heavies. It's a good argument for playing small maps when using them I guess. I like Space Marines and Orcs though. Haven't played Astra Militarum yet and I just started Tyrannids yesterday and I'm not enjoying the early game and Synapse and Biomass gimmick so far but maybe it gets better? Also my first Tyrannid Prime walked into a tree line about 5 tiles from my city and got immediately obliterated by an Enslaver, a Kroot Hound, and a Castellan Bot :/

Sorry for the wall of text.

[Jey]

Originally posted by RoboEmperor:

Daemon Princes die 1 on 1 to Tyranid Primes.

I mean, sure, but their role is not to go into the fray so... It's whatever?

That said, yes, Daemon Prince have always been of rather doubtful utility. They provide a bit of support, but it's not really all that good...

[A.J]

Originally posted by kaisershinryu:

Honestly Chaos are one of my personal favorite factions. Especially after the most recent update. I find the RNG mechanics fitting for one and a little tension spices up what can otherwise sometimes become a tedius and predictable game. I've never had a personal problem with the spawn mechanic.

Early game the spawn are more useful than some of your average starting units. And it happens so rarely that it hardly ever irrevocably fouls one of your strategies. It's more humurous than anything. On the other hand I played a 2v2 game with a friend and he made no less than 4 Demon Princes over the course of the game. We were laughing so hard.

Daemon Prince sucks, so I don't know why you'd be happy about your friend getting 4 of them.

We shouldn't have to save-scum to get around a dumb mechanic. Who would ever want their Chaos Lord to instantly die, lose all items and turn into something else? If that happens and you didn't save recently, the game is over, especially on Impossible.

[V8 Man]

C'mon, guys. Don't be so hard on the Daemon Prince. Where's the love at, people? :)

Seriously though, the DP could stand a serious buff and is definitely out of his element by late game...unless you luck upon one in the early tiers and load up all 6 of his item slots with goodies from Jokaero's. In most instances, he's more suited to support than anything else, good mostly for granting boons and mid-level melee fights. He's only truly worthwhile if your lowly cultist or CSM squad gets transformed into a DP during the early game. DPs are definitely better than Chaos Spawn and can probably be made at least as useful as a Master of Possession or Warpsmith (can't beat that vehicle healing though), assuming that you are lucky enough to get a DP way before tier 9 and get enough items, boons, and upgrades to make a semi-tank out of him (Chaos Lord is still better for this though).

[Major Moolah]

Daemon Prince is a pretty good caster but not a real melee presence.

But if we are going to discuss Chaosrandom, then the real meat are the boons. Getting those free updates on heroes and infantry is really good and makes infantry viable. Remember: boons cost no resources apart from the one research and after the 1.6.1. they unlock much more frequently.

Losing a Chaos Lord to spawndom is unfortunate but that is like winning the spawn lottery, it really is that rare, and obsessing over it warps the picture.

[V8 Man]

Originally posted by Major Moolah:

Losing a Chaos Lord to spawndom is unfortunate but that is like winning the spawn lottery, it really is that rare, and obsessing over it warps the picture.

Yeah, agreed. In my experience, this has just been too rare to pose any kind of a serious irritation. I would love to know what the exact odds are of turning into a DP or CS. Maybe 1-in-100 or 1-in-150? It's hard-coded, so cannot be easily known or modded by players right now. Anyhow, I think it is probably a little more common to get transformed into spawn, but it's still rare in my experience, especially for a Chaos hero to be transformed.

[JDPUK]

Originally posted by V8 Man:

Originally posted by Major Moolah:

Losing a Chaos Lord to spawndom is unfortunate but that is like winning the spawn lottery, it really is that rare, and obsessing over it warps the picture.

Yeah, agreed. In my experience, this has just been too rare to pose any kind of a serious irritation. I would love to know what the exact odds are of turning into a DP or CS. Maybe 1-in-100 or 1-in-150? It's hard-coded, so cannot be easily known or modded by players right now. Anyhow, I think it is probably a little more common to get transformed into spawn, but it's still rare in my experience, especially for a Chaos hero to be transformed.

I agree, and when it does, it kind of goes with the lore of Chaos, I think it adds more than it detracts, it's part of their composition, makes sense.

[kaisershinryu]

I didn't say him getting 4 Demon Princes was great or tactically advantageous. I just said we were laughing about it lol. Because it's funny he didn't make a single warp spawn and every time the ability triggered it was only making princes. I mean they're not so great to justify tier 9 certainly. I never made one myself even after getting the ability to craft them. But they're great for getting off the ground early game when it's like turn 4, especially when you're only transforming one of your starting units. Remember the entire game isn't mid and late game. That early on, a mobile hero with hero damage reduction, demon skin damage reduction, and a mark of Tzeentch can effectively carve through anything around you. And later on it's basically a damage sponge that does decent-ish damage and can occasionally nuke with it's psychic attack (which is affected by Concealed Weapon System I've discovered) Certainly I'd rather barf out free helldrakes every 3 turns though but I rarely kill with my Master of Possession so it's not usually at risk of transforming in the first place. Most of the time I can't afford the energy upkeep for that many warp-spawn lol. Honestly I just like Chaos. I think they're fun and I don't mind the RNG mechanics. If the devs want to increase the reward end of the risk/reward factor though that'd be fine by me.

[Major Moolah]

I have never lost a Master of Possession to spawndom. You have great luck I guess?

[Major Moolah]

Originally posted by RoboEmperor:

I don't get what all the hubub about boons are. Their effects are so minor that simply creating a vehicle unit is significantly better than trying so hard to stack boons.

Well in that case... what is the point of playing Chaos at all? Vehicles cannot get boons or marks at all. Why not play like Space Marines if you want to go all vehicles?

[Major Moolah]

The devs changed the ease of getting boons in the latest update, as I have repeatedly said.

Killing neutrals gives more than enough opportunities to get all the boons you want. In my current infantry build game all my infantry units have all the boons I have researched.

I do not have the energy to try and convince internet randoms that Chaos infantry are now good, Havocs with marks, icons and boons are ridiculously cheap for what they do. And so on. Khorne Berzerkers have so much AP in their melee weapons, made even better with research, to put a dent even in vehicles and cities. And so on.

But you play as you want. I have no reason to convince people of anything, which on gaming forums is typically hopeless anyway.

[KDubya]

Infantry uses food so you can make them without hindering your Defiler production.

Infantry also benefits from cover so Obliterators in a city tile are a tough nut to crack.