Veteran opinion - Necron and Tau need a nerf each

[Matt Gambler]

I have played the game for 638 hours, exclusively 1v1 pvp with random factions.
(Im the guy who hosts "FaqSands I humbly request your presence)"

I'm basing my opinion solely on one thing - 70% of my matches have been against the same person, a friend of mine who also plays exclusively random against me, and over all our probably 100+ matches we both agree that Tau as well as Necrons both have an about 80%+ winrate, no matter who of us rolls what faction. We dont play the same build everytime either, heroes, vehicles, fast research rush, mass scarabs, we like to experiment and we are having a great time with the game and all the different approaches that it allows for - but when Necron or Tau is in the matchup, they win way more often than other factions and that is a shame for such an incredible game.

By now Im disappointed whenever Im Tau or Necrons just because the game is likely to be more onesided than it otherwise would be. I get that maybe you wanna keep Tau strong for now to sell more DLC but I still believe that at the end of the day you are hurting your game more than you are helping it. Unless you are catering more to singleplayer players with varying skill and want to provide an easier faction or two for those, I can understand the sentiment somewhat. But for random pvp players it is all too obvious that balance is lacking here and I think that's a shame.

I dont think a big change would be needed, we dont need to remove necron healing or tau drones, but maybe make necron warriors 5 energy more expensive. or give drones 0.5 upkeep.
You are the ones that get to decide what's best. But if somebody asks me about Gladius, I have to tell em right now that balance is not a priority as far as I can tell.

[Jey]

T'au, yes, and they are thinking about reducing the power of the two main tanks.
Necrons, I'm not convinced they are an issue. Especially, Necron Warriors aren't especially good or anything, and they're not vital to battle. So I'm not sure how making warriors more expensive would change anything if Necrons are too strong.

[Matt Gambler]

It's just an example, I dont really care what they change. I just know that when I get Necrons I hope my opponent also has Necrons or T'au because otherwise I'll probably win and not feel like I've earned it. The Necron Warriors were an example because my usual play partner and me we often clash very early because we play on the smallest map, and usually necron doesnt field much else than necron warriors at that point yet. and with the regeneration a lil bit of micro is all it takes to come out on top against most other factions. If they'd nerf some midgame units instead the impact would be often not noticable if its a quick win.

[KDubya]

What settings do you use for your game and map?

Increased or decreased wildlife?

What loyalty settings?

Changed map settings, resource density?

How deep into the tech tree do you get?

1vs1 on a tiny map probably does no favors for a slow booming race like Astra Militarum. It might be that different races are better on different settings. If you play 1vs1 on a huge map with max wildlife and some other settings maxed i'd bet that the win rates are different.

If different settings make for different dominant races does that make the game unbalanced?

[Matt Gambler]

Fair point, that is certainly possible, but I personally doubt it has much to do with it.

Medium wildlife,
standard loyalty,
medium pace,
medium ressources except artifacts, which are low.

Usually Id say 40% of the games end early, with one faction gaining an early lead like managing to kill an enemy hero or pincering the enemy force against a second front of neutrals or just by one side having a rougher time against wildlife in that particular game, that sort of thing.
(Or one side being necron or tau and just stomping the other one early with dronespam or continuously grinding them to tust with regenerating units).
40% make it to midgame, Im talking around tier 6.
The remaining 20% make it to lategame. That happens sometimes even in matches of necron/t'au vs something else but after so many matches we both agree that that happens a lot less often and that the matches inbetween other factions feel a lot more exciting for the winner and less frustrating for the loser.

I do see your point, but given how well balanced the remaining 5 factions feel Im not sure what settings even should be changed to make T'au or Necron feel weaker. If you put more wildlife on the map, wouldnt that just increase the advantage of the already stronger feeling factions as they can expand more freely and gain a ressource and artifact advantage quicker than others?

To your question - if different settings make for different dominant races then no, I wouldnt say that that makes the game unbalanced. I just dont think necrons or tau would currently not be favoured no matter what settings you use. And Im saying that not as somebody who is particularly good or bad with them, but as someone who wins with them and loses against them anyway 80% of the time.

[Jx]

Necron don't need a nerf. Tau need an early game close combat boost. Tau should be able to build Kroot Hound, not just recruit them on the map via influence ! Also another early game close combat unit or close combat hero for Tau would be nice.

[KDubya]

On my huge map, one of each race and max wildlife, I'm usually tech 4 or more before I ever come into contact with the closest race. When I fight the last two races everyone is tech 9 or 10. I find a big difference in Astra Militarum if i find them first at tech 4 or if its last at tech 10. Infantry and Hydras are much easier than Baneblades and Marauder Bombers.

Necrons are tough throughout the game. Early game they have good healing and good units that continue to get good units at all tech. Infantry focus, vehicle focus, mixture of both, all make for tough armies that even the AI can do pretty good with.

Tau can have an amazing early game with drones and Vespid converting. Their middle game is strong with Utopia boosting multiple smalll cities, crisis suits and hammerhead tanks. Finishing games quickly on tiny maps will play to their strengths. Going into late game huge maps Tau will have some issues with Utopia where others can just spam resource buildings to fuel the machine.

When you go Tyranid have you tried using the lobster strat that is in a guide here? I'd think that it'd be really strong with your settings.

[Matt Gambler]

I dont usually use guides, especially detailed ones that tell you what to do exactly at what turn, but for the sake of your argument I looked through it and I probably tried that here and there, maybe not 100% step by step but I like to switch it up eitherway.

You might be saying "if you dont follow that strategy exactly step by step its not as good" but yeah, I dont claim to be the best player. But I am usually the same player no matter what faction I play, so my point still stands I think. If I would only lose more against necrons and tau, then I could just improve in the matchup, but I also win more with those two factions than with all others and that's what makes it clear in my opinion that its the faction that does the heavy lifting and not me.

About the lobster strategy in particular, I personally wouldnt use anything like carnifex or other high cost melee units against a possible necron because destroyers wreck them too easily, Ive seen better results with biovores and fodder troops. But this is going into too much detail I think. ^^

About your big map ffa games, I believe you, I would agree that IG play a lot more solid on tier 10 than on tier 2, but you can still pump mass royal guards early with frag grenades and survive against most things no matter what. The problem with necrons (as well as tau drone spam) is how hard it is to trade efficiently against them at any stage of the game, regeneration, high armor, teleport wounded units back home, their hero abilities, most factions have a weakness and for necrons my friend and I havent been able to really find one. At least the lowest tier bikes are sufficiently fragile early but necron warriors early are very hard to compete with, while ridiculously easy to play. And increasing mapsize so you cant even reach each other before midgame just feels like it robs both players of the earlygame experience as far as Im concerned.
Just eco, because he wont find you anyway, you know? Not that it would make dealing with Necrons any easier.
To be fair, cant say the same about Tau, havent fought them often enough in lategame yet as they tend to kill me before that.

[Atoastydoofus]

Origineel geplaatst door Jx:

Necron don't need a nerf. Tau need an early game close combat boost. Tau should be able to build Kroot Hound, not just recruit them on the map via influence ! Also another early game close combat unit or close combat hero for Tau would be nice.

God if they had breacher teams

[Bizzo]

Necron Annihilation Barges are the problem. They give the Necron player in our group about an 80% win rate. They are too good at everything (damage vs Inf is great, vs Vehicles is good enough, awesome movement, decent defenses esp with upgrades, great amount of health). It is way too strong for such an early unit. Immortals and Destroyers on the other hand need to be buffed.

Tau can be fixed by not having every single one of their units be able to summon a drone. Maybe make that an ability for the less common units, then they can't double the size of their army in one turn.

[KDubya]

Origineel geplaatst door Bizzo:

Necron Annihilation Barges are the problem. They give the Necron player in our group about an 80% win rate. They are too good at everything (damage vs Inf is great, vs Vehicles is good enough, awesome movement, decent defenses esp with upgrades, great amount of health). It is way too strong for such an early unit. Immortals and Destroyers on the other hand need to be buffed.

Tau can be fixed by not having every single one of their units be able to summon a drone. Maybe make that an ability for the less common units, then they can't double the size of their army in one turn.

Do you think changing just Annihilation Barges would suffice?

What would you want to change? Cost, damage, armor, hit points?

I think Necron are the strongest race, solid all the way through the tech levels with every unit good, well perhaps not Immortals but ... Does that mean they need to be nerfed? I'm not sure about that.

I don't pvp, so I prefer enjoyment rather than balance. I enjoy facing the Necrons AI as they are a challenge and put up a good fight whether you meet them first or last.

[Matt Gambler]

I think it would be best to leave the details of what to nerf how to the devs at the end of the day. Personally I dont mind the annihilation barges that much because I struggle against necron just as much when he doesnt build them and when I play necron myself I dont research them in most games.

Origineel geplaatst door KDubya:

I think Necron are the strongest race

No further questions your honor. :P
We are very different players, I dont enjoy playing against AI, but otherwise I ofc enjoy the game a lot as well, I didnt log 600+ hours for nothing. People are usually very quick to call for nerfs and I usually try to avoid being like that because I believe you cant truly understand the balance of a game until you have played every faction many times. In early Starcraft 2 days Protoss where called op, then Terrans, a lil bit later Zerg, whatever people happened to lose against on that day. Then people got better and they stopped crying about everything but instead developed solutions to it instead.
I like to think of myself as somebody who doesnt call for nerfs until Im absolutely convinced that I have tried every approach repeatedly.

But to your question, yes, if a race is the strongest race then that means it should be nerfed. The ideal game has many factions that are equally strong because of their many strengths and weaknesses and that player skill is needed to make them win - instead of just having a faction that is stronger than the others, at least when it comes to people like me who enjoy 1v1 pvp. Imagine chess, but one side has only one rook. That's less fun for the winner as well.

[Jey]

Origineel geplaatst door Matt Gambler:

I think it would be best to leave the details of what to nerf how to the devs at the end of the day.

It's actually better to explain what is too strong, so that the devs can evaluate the claim.

Your complaint that warriors are too strong on tiny maps could be alleviated by playing on a small map instead.

[Matt Gambler]

That's why I didnt wanna go into too much detail, because it's not the warriors that are the problem, it's basically everything. No matter what I do, vehicles, early research, no research, quick expand, no expand, I usually win anyway. With other factions you are gonna take losses when you are forced to retreat, you might even lose a hero. With necrons you simply teleport home whatever you cant instaheal with influence or slowly regenerate through careful positioning.

*So the many healing options and the teleport is the problem then!*

No! ^^ They just have no real weaknesses. Destroyers are good against basically everything except pure heroless infantry. Monoliths are plain nasty. Hardcore eco with rapid rise, no problem.

And about alleviating issues with bigger maps or more wildlife, I actually think necrons would even be stronger on those because they can grab more ressource nodes quicker than most other factions. So you see why I dont want to tunnel in on one thing. When I play Necrons and the opponent isnt also Necron or T'au, I usually win. If I dont play Necron or T'au and I face one of them, I usually lose. Given that my skill and understanding of the game otherwise doesnt change much and given how the remaining 5 factions all feel like Im doing equally well with them, it seems clear to me that Necrons and T'au must be too strong.

But I dont claim that measure A or B is best in order solve the problem, I usually learn through trial and error, randomly shouting "necron cities should have only 5 max pop" or "rapid rise needs a 10 turn cooldown!" is not gonna make me sound convincing. I am convinced something needs to be done if balance is a priority. But surprisingly people dont really seem to agree, so whatever, I'll just remain disappointed whenever I roll Necron.

[Shin]

Are you playing on the latest beta? Tau receives a lot of nerfs in 1.5.4. Necrons receives with Tau an indirect nerf in the form of the Jink ability. It now costs an action point and reduces 33% accuracy of that unit. This affect a lot of Necron vehicles since they are hovering units.
Devs are discussing about Sky Rays and Hammerhead changes which is a main problem because they are currently anti everything units.
In my opinion Tau are still very strong but I think next patch will fix a lot of it. I don't have many problems against Necrons so I don't think they necessarily need a nerf.
If you want to discuss about balance there is also a discord server for this game.

[Shin]

I also like to point out some weaknesses of the Necrons:
- Necron infantry has a hard time against grenade spam. If you are playing a faction with grenades and are encountering a lot of Necron infantry use grenades against them. Necrons biggest weakness in infatnry builds is they don't have grenades.
- Necron abilities are good but they also are expensive. Often they don't have so much influence to heal every unit like you want. Try also to focus Necron units down one by one. Don't let them heal or escape with teleport. Every loss hurts the Necron player because usually there units are expensive as well. Especially their vehicles are expensive.
- Necrons have high morale but they also have problems recovering it. Once broken they become pretty weak. Try to aim for high leveled or big key units which hits the morale. Since the latest changes morale became much more important. Other factions can recover with morale abilites. Necrons don't have any.
- Tomb positioning can sometimes screw the Necron economy. They can't place there cities like they want.

I think there are even more weaknesses I forgot. But these are some. Hope this helps.