Tau army and thoughts on kroot (we dont need them)

[Walrus Clan (Wally)]

I have playing a lot of the tabletop game recently and my primary army is Tau. I think this has given me a lot more insight into how they should be handed in Gladius. The 7h point is very important so skip to that one if you must.

1) The Tau play with screening armies and then very powerful mechs and tanks in the back. The screening is done primarily by teams of firewarriors.
2) Tau army uses a lot of something called "markerlights." There are certain units that dont shoot normal weapons. instead they mark enemies with lights that provide more bonuses to their other shooting units. Think of how in the army someone will point to a spot and then a missle will come down there.
3) The fireteams strength is in how many shots they get compared to other shooters and the range that they get those shots. In gladdius you could give them rapid shot at a range of 2 or make it where if they are at a range of 1 its a very~ strong rapid shot. so maybe at range 2 they shoot 1 shot, at range 1 they shoot 3.
4) Tau overwatch is more than 2ce as good as everyone elses. Normally you get overwatch if you are being charged against. Then you can only hit if you roll a 6 on a 6 sided dice. The Tau can overwatch if they are close to someone else who is being shot at and they hit on 5s or 6s. This is very~ important for tau play because of the next point.
5) The Tau are terrible in melee. They really~ want to kill you before you get to them. They have arguably the best~ shooting army in the game. They dont have any psykers though and they are very bad in the fighting phase.
6) The Tau backline is incredible~ and id say the best there is. They are even more squishy than the AM tend to be though.

THIS IS A BIG ONE!!!!!!

7) The Tau pretty much NEVER use kroot. When you look at all of the current armies, they are not using kroot in any of them. When i think about players who want to play the Tau you will have a lot of people who love the mech idea and enjoy these powerful back line shooters. I bet hardly anyone says "I love those Tau kroot but just hate the huge mechs and tanks." Since kroot arent used in any current armies and since the kroot isnt really the drawl to the Tau army. I would suggest not using them in Gladius. They are poor units that arent very exciting or fun. I would much rather bring more pure tau than have to have any kroot. No kroot for Gladius!

Edit: To clarify. If we could have a complete full roster, I would want that. We will have to make choices though. Since we know that is the case, I believe that I would rather have the mechs and lack the kroot/vespid.

[coki187]

@Midas
Again, I completely disagree.

if they took the Kroot away from the Tau would people still want to play the Tau?

For the casual Tau fan, they may not care. For the hardcore fan, this would most likely bother them alot.

What do you think would happen if they made the Kroot and Vespids into their own faction?

This is the equivalent to asking if Scout Marines should be removed and made their own faction away from Space Marines since they're not full fledged Space Marines (depending on the chapter. Space Wolves does things a bit differently in regards to scouts).
The Kroot and Vespid are fully attached to the Tau army and the lore. The entire point of the Tau is to have a force comprised of different alien races fighting for a common goal (well, if you dig deep into the lore, it seems to be more about manipulation, but that's besides the point). It's even been common for the Tau forces to have Ork and Human mercenaries fighting alongside them. Having the Kroot and Vespid would perfectly reinforce this in the game.

The firecast is very disciplined and works incredibly well together. You have generals behind them calling out orders helping the firecast perform better.

This is mostly true. But, the firecast are rarely the first into combat. When it comes down to large battles, it is often the other races that are the first into battle.

All that aside, ignoring the lore and thinking of only video game terms, specifically how Gladius plays, the Kroot at least would need to be attached to the Tau. From what the Devs have stated about units excluded from the game, it seems like they were trying to avoid overlap/redundant units. Each unit performs a role and cannot be replaced by another unit.
For example, their are two types of Fire Warriors for the Tau, the Breacher Teams and Strike Teams. The way they would be implemented in the game would make them both work too similarly (the main difference in weapons is rapid fire and assault), so only one would be added to the game.
That being said, the kroot fill in a role none of the other Tau units can fill. Sin the Fire Warriors are as squishy as the Imperial Guard units, but would be more expensive since their weapons are more powerful than the Space Marine Bolters, they cannot act as a throw away sacrificial unit like the guard. The kroot are the cheap sacrificial unit, along with being excellent scouts. The kroot share the ability to move through cover like the kroot hounds, giving them an upper hand on all other early units amougnst the other armies.
The vespid are the only non-battle suit jump units (not counting drones). Battle suit units would most likely be near the mid to later research tiers for the Tau, meaning this would be the most mobile infantry unit early on for the Tau, but more importantly, the first early unit to have a weapon with good AP (the Neutron Blaster). None of the early Tau weapons have any AP outside of these weapons, making them perfect harassing units vs Space Marines and Necrons.

All in all, it makes sense lore wise for them to be in the game. It makes sense game mechanic wise for them to be in the game. For players that don't want to use them, they simply don't use them. Plenty of units in each army I don't use for one reason or another, but I rather have the option there if I change my mind.

[Mr.Kill]

The kroot should be in the game because the Tau are supposed to be co-existant faction (as in they integrate other species and try to be tolerant). It would be a sad day when the Imperial Guard and Necron have more interspecies units than the Tau do.

[Floppy]

How about we give Tau the tools they have available in the lore and not ditch whatever is not part of a current edition meta army?

On a planet that´s apparently overrun with kroot hounds, why would the Tau not deploy any Kroot?

[Elindos Phar & Family]

Thank you for the notes on Tuu mechanics.

I will disagree on the Kroot point too.

Kroot are in the lore, in the codex army list, and have interesting subspecies. If anything, along with Ethereals etc, they aso make the Tau not some "Battletech corporational army" but a true empire. My opinion stands of course with the ones defending the Kroot as being brought into the game, and I don't see any reason not to. Not liking them should not be a reason ;)

[Emperor Fooble]

+1 Coki187. Great and detailed post.

I think Kroot are actually really interesting. They have a really cool tribal structure that fits into a galactic, spacefaring empire in a unique and thoughtful way.
They are hunters who eat their prey, and gain abilities and evolutions depending on what it is they eat.
They evolved from being kroot hounds, by eating Orks that crashed on their homeworld! That is pretty cool, right? Each new species they eat, they get evolutionary perks.

They also have Dinosaur like creatures - If you don't think a Greater Knarloc rampaging around Gladius eating things isn't cool, then I guess we are two very different people.

They also add meaningful units to the 'infantry' tech tree. Following the other factions, who are split into infantry and vehicle trees, it's reasonable to assume that Tau will be no different.

Vehicles will most likely start with a pirhana, the Skyray will be the token anti air, T3 will unlock battlesuits, then it will move on up to hammerheads, and culminate with a Riptide as the ultimate unit. A Stormsurge is simply too big and powerful for this game – it's on par with an Imperial Knight after all.

Infantry, once past fire warriors and drones, have nowhere to go. Kroot, Vespid, Krootox, and the Greater Knarloc not only very nicely round out that tree, they enable some really cool new mechanics and use of existing mechanics, such as move through cover that would make them really useful.

[Bootleg Chauncey]

How people play the faction in tabletop isn't important. The Tau army list needs to be designed to create a fun, unique, balanced side. That likely means including at least one melee unit, which would be easily filled by kroot, as Tau are notoriously poor in melee generally speaking.

[ctiger]

I totally oppose anyone who would see an option eliminated(Kroot) simply because they don't like it. Other players should not be punished because of your preferences. If you don't like them...just don't use them. Simple.

[Walrus Clan (Wally)]

Floppy a écrit :

How about we give Tau the tools they have available in the lore and not ditch whatever is not part of a current edition meta army?

On a planet that´s apparently overrun with kroot hounds, why would the Tau not deploy any Kroot?

As I stated previously. Its not a matter of "do you want everything or not?" I would obviously prefer to have every unit from every roster. We are not going to get that though. We have to pick and choose. So the questions then become things like "Would you rather have Broadsides or a vespid?" "Would you rather have a coldfire suit or a krootox?" For eah of these questions I would rather have more of the normal Tau units and I would guess that most people would feel the same.

[Walrus Clan (Wally)]

ctiger a écrit :

I totally oppose anyone who would see an option eliminated(Kroot) simply because they don't like it. Other players should not be punished because of your preferences. If you don't like them...just don't use them. Simple.

No one is saying this. The issue is we dont have the ability to make a complete full roster. So we must pick which areas to focus on. I think the kroot are the least exciting part of the Tau. I think most would agree.

[Walrus Clan (Wally)]

Emperor Fooble a écrit :

+1 Coki187. Great and detailed post.

I think Kroot are actually really interesting. They have a really cool tribal structure that fits into a galactic, spacefaring empire in a unique and thoughtful way.
They are hunters who eat their prey, and gain abilities and evolutions depending on what it is they eat.
They evolved from being kroot hounds, by eating Orks that crashed on their homeworld! That is pretty cool, right? Each new species they eat, they get evolutionary perks.

They also have Dinosaur like creatures - If you don't think a Greater Knarloc rampaging around Gladius eating things isn't cool, then I guess we are two very different people.

They also add meaningful units to the 'infantry' tech tree. Following the other factions, who are split into infantry and vehicle trees, it's reasonable to assume that Tau will be no different.

Vehicles will most likely start with a pirhana, the Skyray will be the token anti air, T3 will unlock battlesuits, then it will move on up to hammerheads, and culminate with a Riptide as the ultimate unit. A Stormsurge is simply too big and powerful for this game – it's on par with an Imperial Knight after all.

Infantry, once past fire warriors and drones, have nowhere to go. Kroot, Vespid, Krootox, and the Greater Knarloc not only very nicely round out that tree, they enable some really cool new mechanics and use of existing mechanics, such as move through cover that would make them really useful.

The Tau have units in mechs that arent huge. Like their crisis suits, coldfire, and steathsuits. Those could be down the infantry lines as well.

[coki187]

For the argument

"Would you rather have Broadsides or a vespid?" "Would you rather have a coldfire suit or a krootox?"

I'll refer to my earlier argument about each unit has a role. Comparing Broadsides to Vespids, and Coldfire to Krootox isn't a good comparison. All of these units fill different type of roles and have no overlap. Units that would have overlap are the different types of battlesuits that carry similar roles, such as the XV8 Crisis Battlesuits and Bodyguard suits (both wouldn't make it in, just one). THe XV25 Stealth Battlesuits and XV95 Ghostkeel are also similar in their battlefield roles, so only 1, if any, would make it. The Kroot and Vespid units don't carry any overlap with other units.

The Tau have units in mechs that arent huge. Like their crisis suits, coldfire, and steathsuits. Those could be down the infantry lines as well.

Coldfire suits are mainly (if not exclusively) used by HQ units, which in this game would be heroes. Crisis suits are the equivalent to Terminators, so they would most likely be just as far down the research table. Broadsides are long range anti vehicle units, so that role is not threatened. Stealthsuits would probably be the earliest unit in the research table, but still wouldn't overlap with either the Kroot or Vespid.

If your main worry is that the some battle suits may not make it into the game, it wouldn't be the fault of the Kroot or Vespid, but because other Tau units fill the role of those suits.

[THEPROPHET]

Floppy a écrit :

On a planet that´s apparently overrun with kroot hounds, why would the Tau not deploy any Kroot?

Im willing to bet this is how the devs have hinted at the Tau as the next DLC
Tau FTW!! and hopefully we get some of the kroot heavy units for soaking damage while the crisis suits do the job!

[Elindos Phar & Family]

The issue is we dont have the ability to make a complete full roster. So we must pick which areas to focus on. I think the kroot are the least exciting part of the Tau.

Myself I would rather have one or two or three less "battlemech" and still have about 6 others around, because it's great, and still have all the Kroots and Vespids ;)

[=EBS= WarGanisM]

I disagree with the premise of this thread, solely on the principle of taking away choice is never a good thing. If the dev's ever decide to add Tau, and have the extra flavours of other units such as kroot, krootox, Gnarloc's Vespids etc let them. You personally don't have to like them or use them etc. However having them in the game, adds diversity against enemy composition, and allows the players be it majority or minority to also enjoy them.

Not adding something because you personally don't like them, just deny other peoples fun for no reason at all. If there was some kind of restritcions like Devs only had time to add core elements of Tau then maybe this sort of thing would be debatable. However on the basic theory of Devs adding the Tau, I'd like them to add the Tau properly like any other faction.

Alo there's seems to be alot of generalisation in here, like most people like etc. Unless there some sales numbers, or some kind of survey to back up claims of preference, one can only speak for them selves, unless an elected official.

[Walrus Clan (Wally)]

=EBS= WarGanisM a écrit :

I disagree with the premise of this thread, solely on the principle of taking away choice is never a good thing. If the dev's ever decide to add Tau, and have the extra flavours of other units such as kroot, krootox, Gnarloc's Vespids etc let them. You personally don't have to like them or use them etc. However having them in the game, adds diversity against enemy composition, and allows the players be it majority or minority to also enjoy them.

Not adding something because you personally don't like them, just deny other peoples fun for no reason at all. If there was some kind of restritcions like Devs only had time to add core elements of Tau then maybe this sort of thing would be debatable. However on the basic theory of Devs adding the Tau, I'd like them to add the Tau properly like any other faction.

Alo there's seems to be alot of generalisation in here, like most people like etc. Unless there some sales numbers, or some kind of survey to back up claims of preference, one can only speak for them selves, unless an elected official.

No one is proposing this. We are acknolwedging that there must be choices when choosing units. We cant start form a completely full roster. So we are discussing which areas we would like to cut. I have said the kroot and other allies. If you have a better area to cut then please say what you would like to cut instead.