Ork unit feedback

[Seswatha]

Here's a broader feedback on all units after playtesting orks:

Boyz - boyz are a solid unit, although pretty upgrade dependent. Scale pretty well, but get replaced by nobz in all regards later on.

Tankbustas - Tankbustas aren't terrible, but they have weaker damage than comparable av units unless you have maxed waaagh and cyb ork buff (that's if you have cd to spare on them). Their main lategame problem is that they are too damn squishy without the painboy buff, and they're not the unit that has top priority to get it. Their grenades are also terrible and worse than just attacking pretty much always. Tankbusta bomb needs a buff and (maybe) they could benefit from heavy armor tech to make them bit less paper thin.

War buggies - decent enough scout and fire support unit, no complaints.

Meks - well, they repair stuff.

Deffkoptas - solid skimmer unit. Continuing the theme of useless bomb abilities bigbomm is pretty useless though and needs a boost.

Killa kans - one of the most useless units. They are probably supposed to be a siege/forest clear unit due to flamers ignoring cover but both the flamer and the claw have low damage and abysmal accuracy. Needs massive buffs.

Mek gunz - I made a separate thread about these, because orks don't exactly have many options for dealing with flyers but these guys are much worse than tankbustas while being 2 tiers higher and specialized anti air. Basically it's the combination of heavy + 2 range that makes them worthless, as I said in the other thread they either need 3 range or lose heavy. They likely won't be a good unit even after that, but they would at least be usable.

Battlewagon - it works ok as a transport, but it has 2 techs adding extra guns but still does little damage even when fully upgraded. I can't see myself investing anything in its upgrades as is.

Meganobz - I think it's the best melee infantry unit in the game, especially if you consider the synergy with painboy. Not by a huge margin though, at least without buffs, and Orks need some strong units too. If there is any unit I could see nerfed it's them though, or maybe the cyb ork buff, cause it makes them and warboss a bit crazy.

Dakkajet - pretty much the only actually good ork ranged unit and one of the only effective counters to enemy air. I don't think they're too good, but they're essential because tankbustaz and mek gunz are not good enough for the job.

Gorkanaut - Bit weird unit, really tanky but slow and expensive transport, which isn't really fit for being a transport in the first place. It has ok ranged damage, but nothing to write home about. It's melee looks solid until you notice 0 AP. Is that a bug? How the hell the huge Klaw of Gork has 0 AP? I think it would be a solid unit if the claw had 6 AP, it's simply too expensive for what if offers now.

Burna-bommer - it's worse than Dakkajet, even vs infantry. Main issue is the recurring theme of bomb ability being terrible.

Squiggoth - I will admit I've never built the thing. It seems like it can do a number on infantry with its AP 10 blast attack with average 10 damage. Then again its ranged capabilities look pathetic and with its upkeep being as high as it is I don't see it being very useful.

[Seswatha]

I'm glad that a lot of the units in the list have seen improvements in the last few patches.

Here's the list of units that are much more usable now:

Tankbustas, Deffkoptas, Mek gunz, Gorknaut, Burna bommer

Units that I think still need tweaks:

Killa kans - still a complete joke unit. It's the same cost/tier as dreadnought but the damage output is pathetic. Why do their claws do so little damage and only have 33% accuracy compared to 50-66% of most other melee units? This can't be right.

Battlewagon - it's ok in its basic form, but if I spend two techs on improving its guns I expect at least decent damage output, but it's still extremely low. I think both researchable guns need buffs.

Squiggoth - Ok, I've used it, it has great damage output despite only 33% melee accuarcy (why?) because it can attack and stomp on the same turn. The deal breaker is how squishy it is. 6 armor and 96 health isn't a lot for a melee unit and it goes down quite easily. Ranged ultimates have like 50% more health and armor which is just weird. Despite its damage potential, it gets focused down way too easily and given it costs like 2 gorknauts (even more in upkeep) and needs a separate building to produce I just don't see it being very useful. I think it's ok as a unique low armor high tier unit but it needs more hp. If its damage needs to be a bit lower to compensate, that's ok. it just doesn't work as extremely expensive melee glasscannon.

[Ozpa]

I've read everything, thanks for sharing :) I don't play orks too often so that's a really good introduction.

[Slitherine_Iain]

I've noted the Killer Kans and will ask the team to check.

[postpaleo]

I finally got a little further playing them, but not to far, game crashed, never happened before like that. Anyway, had the quests on and was on the one where you defend the new town...yikes!!!, all your comments came true in a heart beat. Orks need help, badly. The AI spams them, which makes them a pain, but they are weak. I was kind of thinking it might be nice if thier granade cool down was shorter and like you said buffed.

[LPG]

Deffkoptas are too expensive and feed to much exp to be worth building imo.

Battlewagon is bad at everything. I would suggest giving it 5 movement to make it a more viable unit transport.

The 2 gun upgrades are pretty worthless though you are right.

Originally posted by Seswatha:

Squiggoth - Ok, I've used it, it has great damage output despite only 33% melee accuarcy (why?) because it can attack and stomp on the same turn. The deal breaker is how squishy it is. 6 armor and 96 health isn't a lot for a melee unit and it goes down quite easily. Ranged ultimates have like 50% more health and armor which is just weird. Despite its damage potential, it gets focused down way too easily and given it costs like 2 gorknauts (even more in upkeep) and needs a separate building to produce I just don't see it being very useful. I think it's ok as a unique low armor high tier unit but it needs more hp. If its damage needs to be a bit lower to compensate, that's ok. it just doesn't work as extremely expensive melee glasscannon.

I agree entirely with your statements on Squiggoths.
You have to commit so much to get one and they really are not very good.

I think it needs a major buff to its hp.

something like 170.
6 armour with no flat resist is nothing.

[coki187]

In regards to Killa Kans, I think their stats match up pretty accurate to the table top. Since they're operated by grots, their melee would be weaker than other orks, but, their range would be better in contrast. I think the weapon choice could be changed though. I think that instead of a flamer, a Grotzooka would be more useful. I believe the conversion would make it a Dmg. 2.5 - 3 (not sure on this match), 2 attacks, Acc 6 (50%), AP0, Blast.

Another possible way to improve the Killa Kans would be to add another Kan to the squad. The extra attacks and HP may be all that is needed to make them useful.

[KDubya]

In defense of Battlewagons:

They havea lot of health and are hard to kill. If the battlewagon doesn't die in the enemies turn you can pull it back and heal. Other races have like 1/2 to 1/3 of the health of a Battlewagon on their vehicles. Not dieing is the key to winning wars of attrition, also helps keep experience away from the enemy.

Also they don't need power which helps when you hit a bottleneck due to spamming dakkajets.

[LPG]

Can confirm also Killa Kans are complete trash.

Flamers in Kill Team have 0 chance to miss. I'm not sure if that is the case in 8E but killa kans have 0 damage output against anything.

[Seswatha]

I think Deffkoptas aren't too bad currently, but they're probably not a competitive choice. They're similar to landspeeders in all regards, except they have 50% less health and suffer from losing models. For the same cost you can get 2 warbuggies which between them do like 20% more damage and have almost tripple the health. They're still an decent scout and fire support, but to make them a competitive tech path for MP they probably either need more HP or lower cost.

Battlewagons I think are still somewhat useful as transports because moving a 1 tile unit around is much easier than moving several 1 tile units, but I wouldn't mind +1 speed.

Speaking of their HP and damage output, they have the same HP as Leman Russ (which is really good for a ranged tank) but like 0 damage (I think they do 2 average damage in their basic form). After researching both their guns I would expect them to be able to do decent damage, not leman russ with bolters level of damage of course, but I think they still do about as much damage as warbuggies.

[LPG]

Deffkoptas are just too expensive.
30 ore + 30 power, with 3 power upkeep.
Power being the hardest resource to gain.

They need a seperate tech for their bomb ability, but how many deff koptas are you going to field at that price?

I suggest making them cheaper. Maybe 25-25 with 2 power upkeep. Even then they wouldn't be a "Great" unit just alright.

Battle wagon has 3 techs. Realisticly how many battlewagons will you have to justify all that science?

I suggest giving battlewagon +1 speed, and combining the 2 upgrade techs into 1.

[Seswatha]

Originally posted by LPG:

Deffkoptas are just too expensive.
30 ore + 30 power, with 3 power upkeep.
Power being the hardest resource to gain.

They need a seperate tech for their bomb ability, but how many deff koptas are you going to field at that price?

I suggest making them cheaper. Maybe 25-25 with 2 power upkeep. Even then they wouldn't be a "Great" unit just alright.

Battle wagon has 3 techs. Realisticly how many battlewagons will you have to justify all that science?

I suggest giving battlewagon +1 speed, and combining the 2 upgrade techs into 1.

Quite reasonable suggestions.

[postpaleo]

There is something else here, Orcs just are not as fun to play as the others. :) They need some love.

[Martialis]

Originally posted by KDubya:

In defense of Battlewagons:

They havea lot of health and are hard to kill. If the battlewagon doesn't die in the enemies turn you can pull it back and heal. Other races have like 1/2 to 1/3 of the health of a Battlewagon on their vehicles. Not dieing is the key to winning wars of attrition, also helps keep experience away from the enemy.

Also they don't need power which helps when you hit a bottleneck due to spamming dakkajets.

+1

I like Battlewagons. Besides being tough and helping me get troops just where I need them, it seems like they are always in just the right place to do the 10 points of damage I need to finish off an enemy. I like seeing the upgrades as they appear on the vehicles (claw, shoota, rokkit launcha). And don't forget that the "red iz fasta" tech increases their damage as well. As far as movement goes, it seems like they have a consistent move speed, and tend not to get as hung up on forests and ruins as Gorkanauts, for instance.

The unit I don't like and would replace is Burna Bommas. Seems like just an inferior version of Dakkajets with no redeeming qualities. Needs more damage, more health, better armor, or something.

[LPG]

Burna Bommas did you reasearch the burna bomb for them? not sure why it's seperate but it is

[postpaleo]

Question, with all the numbers and ideas being put on the table, and I just have not played them much, but that buff they can get from thier medics, wouldn't that be a pretty big deal over any base numbers being discussed?