The upcoming Spell Crafting system

[Mesarthim]

Hello all,

So what do you think about it? The devs just gave us a nice article about it.

Here are my thoughts and why I'm excited but at the same time worried:

First, a spell crafting menu? I am quite against it TBH! I'd rather have a new crafting station with beautiful effects on it like the ones we already have ! The more crafting stations we get, the happier I'll be as I'll be able to play the mage who stay in his tower all day long studying magic.

I don't want characters to be able to do so much by themselves in the middle of nowhere as I could see some abuse already in PvP.

Now, I said it already plenty of times but I hope we will get firewalls, better telekinesis and invisibility.
Spells to teleport home from anywhere and teleport from a building to a different one (or the crafting of some stone to place anywhere like what we find in the towers already).

Right now, I'm a bit worried those new effects won't change the spells much, a lightning coming from the sky rather than the staff is fun but is quite the same except you can't cast it inside (normally)
A fireball becoming a grenade doesn't have much use other than PvP to lob walls or throw through windows.
So I really hope those effects will add more to transform them into something fun.

A lightning becoming a temporary electric field is something talking to me.
A fireball becoming a temporary pool of lava is also talking to me or a fireball levitating and exploding only when someone comes near it sounds interesting.
Or ice becoming a temporary slippery surface also allowing to walk on water is talking to me.
Just like invisible projectiles.

Now if you can combine all that, it would be really fun... An invisible grenade, thrown through a window and when someone comes near, it explodes and create a temporary pool of lava !

I remember a FPS game called "Lichdom:Battlemage" where we could craft different spell effects but none of those were really interesting and the game quickly got boring... I'm starting to pray so it doesn't become the same thing.

Anyway, more specific to the devs:

We craft a new spell... How does the spell work? Does it become a "skill" or a parchment? Can we give it to another player? Does it have limited use? Does it require ingredients to cast?
(well, limited use and ingredients would be really bad IMHO so I hope not)

[Awakened Gamer]

Publicado originalmente por Mesarthim:

Publicado originalmente por Dragonbound:

I really think you guys should consider something like a lightning whip or glacial balls with ice spikes on them, get more creative with the elements.

That could be fun !

Publicado originalmente por rgcheek:

How about a 'Find my Clothes' spell? :)

What? lol
I could agree with a "find my keys" but "my clothes"?
But one thing I really liked in the PnP Ars Magika was that we had to create spells for comfort, which is really important like warmth, cleaning, ... Seems like nothing, but if you think about it, this is probably the first spells any normal human would think of.

Lmao!

[John_J_FROST]

Publicado originalmente por Mesarthim:

I remember a FPS game called "Lichdom:Battlemage" where we could craft different spell effects but none of those were really interesting and the game quickly got boring... I'm starting to pray so it doesn't become the same thing.

hmm.. sorry to dissapoint you, but Lichdom has one of the best spellcrafting implement i've met.
yes, it has some limitations, but if something like that will be here, then Citadel become best mage simulator ever: building, crafting, spellcrafting, taming, pvpve..

[Mesarthim]

Hi John_J_Frost,
I think you're fan of a system which is too limited and badly thought.

Not only is the crafting system totally broken with an ugly UI along with a incredibly idiotic loot system (making this game somewhat RPG-ish was their first mistake)
You spend your time running after loot and trying to craft different spells which can lead to a total failure. It is possible to waste epic loot and make something totally useless.

I'm not going to talk much about it 'cause it's not the point but running through bad levels design which are all hallways is the most boring idea anyone ever had.

Now, about the crafting, let's look at what Lichdom did:

-First you select an element.
No issue there, you have to start somewhere right? Fire, lightning and such all associated with their properties (cold can freeze, fire burn, poison DOT...).

-Then, you select a shape.
Those shapes are sorted between Target, AOE and Barrier which themselves have a couple of very limited effects.
Well, this is the first issue I have with the crafting system, spells shouldn't be summed up into 3 categories only.

*The barrier spells just aren't fun and aren't very useful in the end because they're limited to blocks (and timed block it is) and blink (with or without explosions)

*Targetted spells are all the same with slight differences like homing, lobbed and beam.
Homing is useless, lobbed is just a regular cast but you have to aim differently and beams are always weak.

*AOE spells are just the same, falling from the sky or explosion at one place (with or without trap effects which is useless anyway), ... Well, it's just boring and boring.

-And finally I think it's called mastery where you're going to add effects like debuff, DOT and a raised chance for critics.
And that's just what ruins the craft of the spells which will make you switch spells over and over to maximise effects and damage... Rince and repeat.

There are a few fun spells to do and everything is not entirely bad but just generally speaking, it's not fun, it's tiring and after playing a couple hours, you have quickly seen all effects which all look and feel the same and which don't add much to the game.
All spells are damage related against ennemies which are all health bags and force you to play with the mastery stuff to DOT and Crit. to get rid of 'em.
---

What should a spell crafting really give you the option to do? And what effect should you reach ideally? It should be about freedom and creation instead of fine tuning damage.

First chose an effect, what do you want your spell to do? Act like a projectile? A Grenade? A trap? A mine? A beam? A beam ending in an explosion? A rapid fire? Are explosion? Falling from the sky? Lingering on the ground? Walls? Curse? Buff? Shield? Summon? Mind Control? DOT? Invisibility? Stun? Slow? Detect invisibility? Teleport? Blink? Arrow? Rain of arrows? Necromancy? Is it making a hole in the ground making your fall then imprisoning you? Is it making the enemy blink or teleport?

It may seem pretty close to Lichdom system actually but Lichdom is very limited by starting with an element which force you to go in one direction with very few effects.
Starting with such a wide area of effects gives you more possibility and freedom over what you can and want to create.

Then you should be able to chose freely what is the added effect you want to the spell? Summon, but summon what? Many creatures to chose from.
Mind Control, but control how? Directly, indirectly
Cast? Cast what and how? Projectile, touch? Classic fire, lightning? Earth? Cold?
A buff or a curse? How? Strength? intelligence? Health?
Or do you want to add maybe a 2nd effect? Blinking leading to invisibility?

Then, add another effect, the creature you mind controlled could use a buff.
The fireball you just made could electrocute as well by adding other elements or get a second explosion or even a DOT.
As I mentioned above, it could also leave a temporary pool of lava on the floor.
Invisible projectile or freezing trap? Lingering vines on the ground preventing movements?

Damage should be fixed to prevent abuse and each effect and element should have a cost.
There shouldn't be anything about criticals and other stuff which should be left to items only.

And this is when the game starts to be fun, especially for PvP, how will the player in front of you respond? Does he detect invisibility? Does he have protections around him nullifying your damage? Did he set a circle around him which will push you or electrocute you as soon as you get close? Or does he have pure damage spells exploding everywhere?

And how will you react to a counter against you?
That's when being a mage is truly fun !

Now, I don't say Citadel has to implement such a complex system but something more complete than what Lichdom offered would be nice.

Also, look at the mod "Thaumcraft" for minecraft (or just tutorial videos about it) it gets really complex but the creator really had cool ideas (among which the creation of golems gathering ressources for you) other than just projectiles / explosions.

[John_J_FROST]

Publicado originalmente por Mesarthim:

Hi John_J_Frost,
I think you're fan of a system which is too limited and badly thought.

from your description of Lichdom magic system i can say that you haven't played that game enough to understand complexity of it.
i can detach your opinions by step, but insted go simple:game name contains word 'Battlemage', so it oriented on fast, action-type damaging spells. in other words- game is not mage simulator, game is corridor FPS with magic crafting system!
and
what you want to be implemented here is pve set of spells. if you use them in pvp there will be great imbalance- f.e. some of them will be 'must have' when other become useless. same as now, what devs want to even- everyone uses staff, gloves. no one goes melee, because you can kill melee wiz ten times before he reaches you. everyone tames dragons, and no one tames horse (i mean for real, not to try taming spell).

in my view, spellcrafting should be simple and variable at same time:
1- shape of spell: beam, projectile, grenade, area, buff\dot (on yourself buff, on enemy- dot), shield.
2- element\effect- harvest, stat up, fire\ice\lightning\earth\darkness\light\etc., etc., etc.
3- range- melee\ranged.
4- secondary- optional shape, f.e. beam+projectile= blaster, aoe+buff= aura, shield+grenade= droppable shield dome, shield+projectile= temporary miniturret, etc. (beam+beam= .. beam)

every shape has dmg, cost, cast time and duration stats, modified by effect and range. like 'invis' will add '-10% to duration' but 'ranged' add '+20%' to duration to specify support and stimulate party gameplay.

something like that))

[Mesarthim]

No a battle mage is not a character casting damage spells like crazy.
A battle mage is a character using melee, wearing heavy armors and casting spells, any kind of spells but mostly spells affecting his strength and his weapons.
The idea is born from Dungeons and Dragons by multiclassing warriors and mage.
Or: Not at all lichdom.

Lichdom tried to relate to games like Quake but failed. It's not fun because of an awkward loot and crafting system.

Complexity? It's only fine tuning of numbers and damage manipulation.
Forcing the game to crit when you want and using more numbers with elements adding on top of each other,etc.

It's certainly not what Citadel should become IMHO as it wouldn't be fun to wander around and kill everything because you succeeded to manipulate numbers better than the next guy.

The entire point of a spell system is to ballance the whole thing and to be able to counter the other by some means because it would be dangerous not too.
If you can't counter, you're not prepared / low lvl.
We already have the fantastisc shield system which works quite well to protect bases and yourself.
In citadel, melee spells works incredibly well, now you'd also need spell resistance on armors as well along with buff and shields.
Tames are not so OP IMHO, but why are you mentioning this?

Your view is the exact same as mine actually...
The only difference is you took a 4th steps to add melee/range but your "shape" is already defining the range and adding numbers related to those steps.

Stimulating party gameplay is already done in Citadel by limiting the numbers of spells you can equip. So there will be always room for different mage's "class".

I think numbers would be better off to be modified by items which is the current system citadel is using. (your fireball is getting stronger with your stats and with the staff you have)
I think it's better that way, especially in a crafting rpg-ish game as it gives you reasons to explore and hunt / craft the best item possible.
Changing this system would require to take the game system from scratch to modify it.

In my opinion, if numbers are included too early in the process, the crafting will fall under the one of Lichdom (loot won't matter) and ppl will spend time fine tuning your "shape" / "range" instead of hunting for gears in the dungeons.
Let's say it's better to leave it at what you craft has a base low damage, duration, range,... the more powerful you are, the better equipped you are, the more powerful you will be.

You can't really have everything ballanced in an RPG world where imballance is the base of the game, a low lvl, badly equiped character has absolutely no chance in hell to kill a high level one.

[John_J_FROST]

Publicado originalmente por Mesarthim:

No a battle mage is not a character casting damage spells like crazy.

you get it wrong. battle mage is mage specialized on damaging spells. not enchanter, not summoner, not scholar, not librarian, not loremaster, not druid, etc.
taming: what i mean is people tame dragons if they want traveling mount instead of horses or elks.
range stat: like in Morrowind- cast on self or cast on someone. like shield can be cast on self or on ally. flame blast can be cast on self to damage everything around you\enchant weapon with fire, or cast like fireball to dmg far target.
modifiers on stats is fixed AND in percents, not in numbers: want invis on self? -50% duration. want to make ally invis? +20% duration. but dmg spells reversed- when cast on short range +50% dmg, when cast on long range -20% dmg. and better gear give more base numbers to calculate modifiers- this is simple.

[Raistlin]

If you grew up in the dawn of PC gaming like me, with Baldur's Gate, thorugh the Neverwinter series, onto Dragon Age...and now here.

A Battle Mage was identifiable in that s/he not only cast spells but was also able to wear Heavy Armor and use Heavy Weapons (Sword...etc) and carry a Shield.

[Mesarthim]

You probably haven't played enough or any PnP to know what a battle mage is or where it comes from. What you're talking about is an evocator, not a battle mage.

Taming should indeed not be part of this conversation.
It's only logic ppl try to tame the strongest creatures to either mount, post as guards or take along to attack. It's not part of "spell crafting".

This is my entire point of a "crafting system", if you craft something it should be powerful but not at the point to be OP.
I didn't mention it that way and I don't want % or numbers to be included but my idea is exactly the same. And as I said, the type / rarity of the weapon will increase the effect (dmg, duration, range of AOE, ...) while still being careful it doesn't reach the OP status.
Of course AOE will reduce dmg compared to Target, and mass curse will last less than curse target, etc.

Invisibility should be useful (infinite duration) but easily breakable, seen by towers, by shield, canceled by damage, by charging spell, by using items and seen by anti-invisibility spell, canceled by dispelling,...
I want invisibility, but I don't want something totally OP.

[Awakened Gamer]

Publicado originalmente por John_J_FROST:

Publicado originalmente por Mesarthim:

I remember a FPS game called "Lichdom:Battlemage" where we could craft different spell effects but none of those were really interesting and the game quickly got boring... I'm starting to pray so it doesn't become the same thing.

hmm.. sorry to dissapoint you, but Lichdom has one of the best spellcrafting implement i've met.
yes, it has some limitations, but if something like that will be here, then Citadel become best mage simulator ever: building, crafting, spellcrafting, taming, pvpve..

I tried getting into the game but man it is way to repetitive and boring you want to see a fun spell system? :Look at kingdoms of amular while not all spells where original some where especially the final abilities it was like something straight from the avatar series. Or look at the skyrim spell mods. I regret by far even spending money on lichdom though shudders.

[Awakened Gamer]

Publicado originalmente por Mesarthim:

You probably haven't played enough or any PnP to know what a battle mage is or where it comes from. What you're talking about is an evocator, not a battle mage.

Taming should indeed not be part of this conversation.
It's only logic ppl try to tame the strongest creatures to either mount, post as guards or take along to attack. It's not part of "spell crafting".

This is my entire point of a "crafting system", if you craft something it should be powerful but not at the point to be OP.
I didn't mention it that way and I don't want % or numbers to be included but my idea is exactly the same. And as I said, the type / rarity of the weapon will increase the effect (dmg, duration, range of AOE, ...) while still being careful it doesn't reach the OP status.
Of course AOE will reduce dmg compared to Target, and mass curse will last less than curse target, etc.

Invisibility should be useful (infinite duration) but easily breakable, seen by towers, by shield, canceled by damage, by charging spell, by using items and seen by anti-invisibility spell, canceled by dispelling,...
I want invisibility, but I don't want something totally OP.

Bro you have no idea what your saying.

Constitution is important for hit points and Concentration checks. Dexterity is useful for better armor class. Strength is useful for a battle mage to making melee attacks. Races: There is no race that truly favors this class. However, elves, half-elves, and humans are more likely to desire both arcane magic and combat ability, ...

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Mage_(3.5e_Class)


Battlemage is a class in various Elder Scrolls games. They commonly focus on combat using both magic spells, as well as blunt and blade weapons. Battlemages are a deadly mix of scholar and soldier, and are trained to utilize offensive spells during combat.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Battlemage

[Zero-G]

Publicado originalmente por Dragonbound:

Strength is useful for a battle mage to making melee attacks

It's been forever since I played 3.5 but there are feats that let you substitute your melee attacks with DEX and I think even INT instead of STR

[Mesarthim]

Publicado originalmente por Dragonbound:

Bro you have no idea what your saying.

Constitution is important for hit points and Concentration checks. Dexterity is useful for better armor class. Strength is useful for a battle mage to making melee attacks. Races: There is no race that truly favors this class. However, elves, half-elves, and humans are more likely to desire both arcane magic and combat ability, ...

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Mage_(3.5e_Class)


Battlemage is a class in various Elder Scrolls games. They commonly focus on combat using both magic spells, as well as blunt and blade weapons. Battlemages are a deadly mix of scholar and soldier, and are trained to utilize offensive spells during combat.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Battlemage

You're just saying what I said but with more details. *facepalm* *sigh*

The point of my comments about battle mages are because of Lichdom is wrongly named and to also to inform John Frost of his mistake about his knowledge.

Battle mages only came in because Lichdom had, for me, a crappy and very limited crafting system which I do not wish to see in Citadel.

I never talked about stats, races or anything ! The only thing I talking about was about the crafting system stats compared to what Lichdom did.

I played loads of DnD and various PnP I also played also elder scrolls games to know about the class.
And yes, there is a spell to swap INT and STR specially made for battle mages so you can focus on the mage aspect more.
For the race, it really all depends what version of the game you're playing.

---

Well now, the OP is about Citadel so can we come back to the subject instead of posting useless comments with links?

[John_J_FROST]

Publicado originalmente por Mesarthim:

You probably haven't played enough or any PnP to know what a battle mage is or where it comes from. What you're talking about is an evocator, not a battle mage.

Taming should indeed not be part of this conversation.
It's only logic ppl try to tame the strongest creatures to either mount, post as guards or take along to attack. It's not part of "spell crafting".

This is my entire point of a "crafting system", if you craft something it should be powerful but not at the point to be OP.
I didn't mention it that way and I don't want % or numbers to be included but my idea is exactly the same. And as I said, the type / rarity of the weapon will increase the effect (dmg, duration, range of AOE, ...) while still being careful it doesn't reach the OP status.
Of course AOE will reduce dmg compared to Target, and mass curse will last less than curse target, etc.

Invisibility should be useful (infinite duration) but easily breakable, seen by towers, by shield, canceled by damage, by charging spell, by using items and seen by anti-invisibility spell, canceled by dispelling,...
I want invisibility, but I don't want something totally OP.

you can't see my point of view.
first- i'm not talking about 'game systems', i'm talking abbout common sense. how will you name man with sword? swordman. how will you name man on horse? rider. how will you name mage, casting spells in battle? battlemage. shall we stop talking about something outside THIS game?
second- taming was used as example: yes, 'ppl try to tame the strongest creatures to either mount, post as guards or take along to attack'- this will be exactly same with spells: some will be never used, while others become 'must have'.
third- yes, that's what i mean. but how will you decrease AoE radius? numbers and percents.

[Mesarthim]

A mage casting spells in battles? Hmm... a mage?
You're saying it yourself:
A man with a sword: a swordsman... Did you call it a battle swordsman? Nope !
Well, think about it, how do you call a man casting spells (since it's his weapon): A mage !
Do both of 'em battle? Of course yes!

Now mages are classed in many schools:
The school of spells related to dustruction like fireball is called evocation. (evocator or evoker)
Just like there is illusions, necromancy, ...
A mage using necromancy is a necromancer
A mage casting illusions, an illusionist
A mage enchanting items is an enchanter
And same goes with all different spells like abjuration, conjuration, divination, transmutation, ...

+ PnP (pen and papers games) like Dungeons and Dragons, which invented first all those mages, wizards and sorcerers, created the genre and thus gave proper names to them which were adopted officially then used wrongly or not by many sources over the years.

And yes I know, D&D didn't create mage since D&D was roughly based on Lord of the rings which in turn was rougly based on many legends from many past civilizations already having concepts of mages, witches and shamans but D&D is the first who did create specialties for all of them nonetheless.

Now, it is only common sense that multi-classed characters were also named, hence, the common wizard and warriors was called a battle mage !
You cannot debate it ! It's just how it is and how it's been for years.
Just as it would be puerile to debate about the definition of a word in the dictionnary, you can't ! It's how it is and cannot be changed ! There aren't any argument which can help you no matter how much you try to talk about it and no matter how strongly you can disagree with me and other poeple here. It's how it is and it is what it is ! The end.

---

About taming, I still don't see your point !
It's how it is is for any game with RPG elements where you grow in strength.
you start weak, you tame a horse, you cast magic missiles... you're low level.
You're getting better, you cast fireball and tame griffins.
You're even better, you tame dragons and cast meteor shower !

Now, the issue would be if one or the other would be OP and nothing could be done against it.

You still haven't made any point concerning taming which makes it's mentioning useless.
So, until you succeed to develop correctly and in length what is your issue or your point about taming dragons vs creating powerful spells, I suggest you to give up on that idea.

But right now in Citadel, there aren't any issue with taming dragons and everybody wanting them since they aren't OP. You can't even cast spells while riding, limiting the use of tames and making them A-okay at most.

No, seriously, I killed already a bunch of them and I didn't even find the fight complicated.
They're not what made me break a sweat.
Now, 50 players attack me with dragons, sure I will die, but what can I do against 50 players?
And if a single player attack me and wreck my face with 50 dragons by his side... Well, I won't even feel frustrated, just that I deserved to be killed, that he must have spent the hell of a time to tame and maintain all those creatures and finally, I'll be honnored that such an attack on my face was needed to wreck me. They're strong, I bow, I accept ! I don't like it? I leave the place never to come back. But to me, as long as I had fun in either my win or my loss, I'm happy.

You have an issue because everybody have dragons on your server and they're stronger than you? Well then maybe it's time for a wipe? Or you're not strong enough to yourself have your own dragon army? In which case I'd advise you to find another server if it frustrates you too much.

---

About the numbers, what I mean is I don't want a screen on the side explaining this spell has 60% chance to hit and after adding another effect the spell has now 70% chance to hit or 40%.... That's when ppl start to fiddle to create the best spell ever, the must have everybody needs.

Same with any numbers.

Do not include negative % on effects, instead, set fixed hidden lower values to AOE compared to target.

It's more or less the same as your idea except it does not induce directly on ppl an idea of penalty for doing a thing or another.

And I think it would also be a bad idea to create more penalty related to effects like adding invisibility will reduce the length of the spell by 30%.
Leave it normal and determined by the weapon you're carrying along with your level and your stats.

Now, take all numbers, hide them from ppl and start with low hidden values and let the weapon strength of that weapon decide of any increased value along with charge time.
It's going to be much harder to create a spell everybody will use as "the must have" to kill anybody in sight !

Let's imagine with unaccurate numbers:
A fireball does 50 dmg
An exploding fireball on AOE does 30 to everybody in the area
when wearing a staff of strength 50.

Now, you find or create a staff of strength 100
Fireball does 100
on AOE does 70

Let the size of the area be decided by "charging", the longer you charge, the bigger the size of the AOE until a set limit. While charging, you are defenseless. (slower movements, cannot cast anything else, ...)

Targeted spells: charged increased distance

It works with length too:
Staff 50 makes a buff last 5sec. charge it to a max of 10sec.
Staff 100 makes a buff last 10sec. charged makes 20sec. and on AOE charged might be 15sec.

It makes the spell you create of an "unknown" strength until tested but also it might be very weak and seems useless at first, but when leveling up and aquiring better weapons will make it a very good spell (by that, I mean not OP).

A buff lasting 5sec isn't very great... With higher weapons, a buff lasting over a minute, is much better.

And a good spell stays a good spell all along, getting stronger and stronger.
A fireball is good to begin with, fun to play with as well.
If you try against strong creatures immediately it will be useless though.
But as you level up and get better weapons, your fireball will at last succeed to kill this creature.

Then again, I give simple examples with one number each time but it would be the same with more complex spells as the number would modify everything.

Then, as I explained, create counters and that super amazing poison fireball which has killed thousands will be nullified by a simple shield which removes debuff.
As long as the protection isn't OP either.
That will force ppl to play thousands of different ways. Will you be ready as a defender?

[Zero-G]

I don't think it's any more possible to get into the weeds than we are right now