Skeid or Busse

[KG]

Which do you prefer for what uses both in and out of battle?

*or Snekkja

[Tuidjy]

Snekkja for combat and piracy, and 3 oaken busses (plus a snekkja) to carry an invasion force into an enemy city's harbor. The snekkja is always my flagship.

I dislike controlling more than one ship in battle, no matter whether I'm playing Viking Conquest, or Empire Total War. If you want to maximize loot, renown, and experience, the skeid is too big. With half the men, you get enough speed to kite anyone in a snekkja. A snekkja crewed by Norse warrior archers will outrun any skeid you're likely to encounter in game, especially if you halve their crew in the initial crossing of the T.

And with 300 arrows, you'll eventually kill everyone on the enemy ship. 300 just on your character. The 20 Norse warrior archers get another 2000 or so.

I'm sure that a skeid will kite better, and win faster. It's just that the spoils will have to be divided among twice as many men.

[KG]

So the MC does most of the work in that case? I can't seem to convince my archers to fire from farther than a spitting distance - and the enemy is more than willing to throw any javelins, spears, etc. at hand at such distances. If you only use the one snekkja you're obviously not baiting the enemy to turn their backs to you. That seems either painfully tedious (AI archers vs. shields...?) or for my tastes a little silly (MC sniping everything while the other 50+ combatants are there for rowing and catching arrows with their heads). I'm sure it works one way or another but some testing indicates I won't like it... unless my archers' AI is bugged somehow.

[Hooded Horse]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

If you want to maximize loot, renown, and experience, the skeid is too big... It's just that the spoils will have to be divided among twice as many men.

No, oddly enough in unmodded VC it doesn't work out this way long-term, because spawn size is scaled to the player's current party size and strength.

Meaning a 55 person skeid player will, long-term, encounter much larger bandit parties than your 27 person snekkja party. In the aggregate they will probably end up with more experience and loot, given how the player share works.

Short-term you could generate more experience and loot in your snekja, but as you do that the world will be filling up with smaller parties to replace the ones dying off (as well as the ones you are killing), so it's self-defeating in the long-run. And because of some VC code where sufficient curent small parties block future large parties, a period of time spawning small parties has lasting effects even after you later increase party size.

For VC Balance Mod you'd be right though, because I modded spawns to be a weighted random function, independent of the player party size. I don't like level-scaling in games, especially when it introduces all sorts of counterintuitive weirdness into strategic decisions (like with the present issue).

[Hooded Horse]

Just remembered a second problem with using a snekkja:

Unmodded VC applies a 33% penalty to loot if your party size is less than 40.

(try_begin),
(store_party_size_wo_prisoners, ":party_size", "p_main_party"),
(lt, ":party_size", 40),
(val_mul, ":loot_probability", 2),
(val_div, ":loot_probability", 3),
(try_end),

Player shares are 10, companion shares 3, let's assume 5 companions in the party:

Snekkja loot: (2/3)*[10/(21+10+15)]=0.145

Skeid loot: 10/(49+10+15)=0.135

So the Snekja 27 crew player only gets 7% more loot than the Skeid 55 crew player even assuming the same size enemy party.

VC Balance Mod also removes this loot penalty, but in unmodded VC snekkjas really suffer from it.

[White Knight]

I wrote about the ships and some of the benefits of each one in my guide.

Viking Conquest is nothing but one battle after another, I don't have time for fooling around and racing about the battle map. I want my battles over quickly with few losses.

In my games, I never have all the best gear on super-human companions with maxed out skills, and don't take on armies by myself, etc. For me, having a group of well trained soliders is important.

For that reason, the Busse is the King of the Sea, hands down. The Skeid is an excellent and fast vessel but it is also very thin. There is no room to move on the deck and the troops regularly fall overboard, particularly in rough weather.

If you like ships and naval combat in VC, then you'll probably find something useful in the guide I wrote:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=838952711

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by TYTY135:

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

If you want to maximize loot, renown, and experience, the skeid is too big... It's just that the spoils will have to be divided among twice as many men.

No, oddly enough in unmodded VC it doesn't work out this way long-term, because spawn size is scaled to the player's current party size and strength.

TYTY135, you'd be right if I were hunting bandits. But I take on most lords with that same 27 man party. Any party below 100-120 men gets somewhat intimidated, and treats the 20 archers as a shield wall to be respected, which leaves them at the mercy of my character and his superhuman companions. Even my little Brunhild can pull her weight in melee.

Furthermore, if you have a large party, bandits end up generated powerful enough to destroy some kingdoms economies by preventing lords from recovering their numbers, and even visiting their fiefs. I hate that. You get much better loot from healthy lord parties than from hundreds of crappy bandits (with a few exceptions)

I often get 50K in loot per battle, and money is not an issue. Rare items and experience are.

To be honest, I hate the level scaling as well, and it's one more reason that if I play Viking Conquest again, I am definitely using your mod.

Originally posted by KG:

So the MC does most of the work in that case? I can't seem to convince my archers to fire from farther than a spitting distance - and the enemy is more than willing to throw any javelins, spears, etc. at hand at such distances. If you only use the one snekkja you're obviously not baiting the enemy to turn their backs to you. That seems either painfully tedious (AI archers vs. shields...?) or for my tastes a little silly (MC sniping everything while the other 50+ combatants are there for rowing and catching arrows with their heads). I'm sure it works one way or another but some testing indicates I won't like it... unless my archers' AI is bugged somehow.

My character is a beast with a bow. 300 arrows is enough to actually engage in shield breaking, although I usually do not need to go that far.

And there are tricks to using archers. There is a sweet spot where the enemy switches to 'I'm about to throw my javelin' stance, and is very vulnerable to A.I. archers. That's when you tell your warrior archers to stop holding their fire. That volley is deadly.

Originally posted by White Knight:

For that reason, the Busse is the King of the Sea, hands down. The Skeid is an excellent and fast vessel but it is also very thin. There is no room to move on the deck and the troops regularly fall overboard, particularly in rough weather.

And that's the main reason I do not use skeids. Falling off and drowning while trying to steer and shoot at the same time is not something I enjoy.

[Hooded Horse]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

But I take on most lords with that same 27 man party.

Oh! Then right you are.

And wow, that is seriously impressive.

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

it's one more reason that if I play Viking Conquest again, I am definitely using your mod.

I'm honored to hear that!

If you do, please be sure to send me any feedback or suggested changes. Balance Mod would benefit greatly from your expertise.

[KG]

Originally posted by White Knight:

I wrote about the ships and some of the benefits of each one in my guide.

Viking Conquest is nothing but one battle after another, I don't have time for fooling around and racing about the battle map. I want my battles over quickly with few losses.

In my games, I never have all the best gear on super-human companions with maxed out skills, and don't take on armies by myself, etc. For me, having a group of well trained soliders is important.

For that reason, the Busse is the King of the Sea, hands down. The Skeid is an excellent and fast vessel but it is also very thin. There is no room to move on the deck and the troops regularly fall overboard, particularly in rough weather.

If you like ships and naval combat in VC, then you'll probably find something useful in the guide I wrote:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=838952711

I did find and read your guide. It just didn't go into great depth into the advantages or disadvantages of any particular vessel. I'll probably still have to play around with both a Skeid and a Busse myself but it sounds like the Skeid won't be a favorite.

[White Knight]

Well, if you can discover any relevant details I've overlooked, please let me know and I'll consider updating the guide with what you've found.

I wrote about what I could figure out and went no further. It is nothing more than a player guide so it is as limited as the player who wrote it.

[Hooded Horse]

It's a great guide White Knight--since you listed speeds and crew capacities, and mentioned the issue of falling overboard in a skeid, I'm not sure there is really much more that can be said.

KG: Exactly right, try them out. In large part I'd view it as a roleplaying decision, figure out which ship you like.

Personally, I like to use all 3 of the different warships, snekkja, skeid, and busse, and frequently switch between them. I like the variety for added fun, and I tend to have my 3-6 flagships outfitted in different styles of sail/hull (eventually I have versions in both the Irish Sea and the other side). Warband isn't really a roguelike or something where you have to optimize at all times to survive.

Usually I park the others in some convenient location, or use them as additional troop transports if needed (with 4 seaking skill giving 7 max ships, often you don't need to full optimize and have every transport be a Busse)

[KG]

So far it seems that using a Busse (2/3 full) is somehow getting more of my men killed vs vikingr than using a Snekkja did. Regularly losing 1-2 high tier troops and and having several wounded vs enemy parties half the size of mine. I wonder if the size of the ship is leaving more room for throwing spears & such to find a gap in my men's shields? Just had 1 killed and 3 wounded in a 60 vs 10. :/

AI units definitely don't take advantage of the length of the ship to have troops way out of melee range use throwing weapons or anything.

[big mac]

always get 90 men before deciding. if you get a snekkja you would have to get 2 senkkjas and one knorr for your fleet and getting a skeid you would get one skeid and one byrding. using a busse you just get one busse. or if you dont have enough money just farm trade and enterprises until you have enough for what men you have to set sail with you.

[Buttwheat]

Trick question. Many, many rowboats.