Viking conquest best ranged unit.

[Michcos]

Viking conquest is mostly about infantry. In native you could spam rhodok sharpshooters to destroy any Nord armies in the field (who have no cavalry units at all). So my question is are Pictish Elite Skirmisher any good? I had only one so far and he seemed to be shooting with twigs so I don't know how a group of them would do.

If not crossbowman, then what unit with throwable spears has best armor and melee capabilities?

What about archers? I think they are useless as they have no piercing so they won't destroy shields. Am I wrong is it good to have some?

[Hooded Horse]

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

TYTY135, I think that what really got me going is that I tested your mod with an existing character, who was already a powerful archer, and the featured longbow felt like an SKS in his hands - quick firing and pinpoint accurate.

Do you mean you downloaded VC Balance Mod 4.1? None of the archery changes we are discussing are present there, the only thing that has them is my private test version.

The only archery changes included in 4.1 are:

- Vanilla VC gave a 25% accuracy boost if the player is sneaking with the crouch button sometimes. I removed that, as it was player-only and didn't seem realistic.

- Vanilla VC berserker trait used to kill accuracy and reload speed (-50% and -40% penalties during both active period and exhaustion recovery period). I removed those as part of the berserker rework (which makes berserker lasts the whole battle, and gives a more significant bonus, to be competitive with Inspiring's +5% damage bonus for whole army and Strong's -5% damage penalty to whole enemy army).

Or do you mean you created your own modified file with my proposed bow changes? I think your criticsm is fair in any event, just trying to figure out exactly what is attributable to what.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

Have you considered improving the Power Draw of elite archers, to give yourself more room for fine tuning ranged unit balance? This way you will be able to keep bows relevant for troops without turning overpowered for players and possibly companions.

That would be the best solution, unfortunately, changes to WP and skills are not saved game compatible, and saved game compatibility with vanilla saves is a major design principle. Viking Conquest is old enough that too many people have existing campaigns they dearly love. If I ever do a save incompatible version, I will do a lot of good stuff though--like make lords have varied stats (they are currently exact clones of each other, with the giant Ubbe Ragnarson and the master strategist Aelfred the Great having equal strength and leadership skill....)

I'm open to any sugestions to address your concern, here are a couple of possibilities I'd love to get your advice on (please suggest any other ideas as well):

1) I could smooth the bow accuracy changes out across the 3 levels of bow. Currently, they all went from vanilla 95--->99. I could instead make them

Longbow: 99 or 97
Elite Bow: 97 or 96
Featured: 95

Would something like that be sensible? Do you think the higher base damage and PD requirement will still keep the higher bows as overall beneficial for the player? The better bows do tend to be used by units with slightly higher WP (135+ instead of the 85-120 of the more basic AI archers)

And/or

2) Do the same for the reload speed. Basically only give the current reload speed boost to the basic longbow, then half of it to the elite, then 0 boost to the featured. I could even make the featured longbow slower than vanilla if you think it justified.

Both of the above kind of depend on the issue of whether higher draw weight bow (and longer in-game model--the model for the basic longbow being much shorter than the featured longbow) should mean less accurate/slower to a greater extent than the effect of the current powerdraw skill models. I don't want to create unrealistic distinctions, so I will trust your advice as an archer on those issues, and only implement if you think I should.

Note there is already a slight reload speed drop as the bows get better from vanilla, which I preserved (goes from 85 longbow to 80 on stronger bow)

And/or

3) Smooth the damage bonus, only giving a smaller version to the better bows (but maintaining at least +1 as each heavier bow is reached).

Current modded version goes:

Longbow: 30c
Elite Longbow: 33c
Featured Longbow: 34c

We could knock that down to 30/31/32 if you thought it better, while still helping the basic archer units the same amount.

And/or

4) Drop the powerdraw requirement on the basic bow. I think that would help the lowest tier units handle their bows a bit better, and everything will still be within the +4 range for them to get their full bonus, since all the units have terrible powerdraws. In combination with some of the above possibilities, might also ensure the archer player isn't so tempted to opt for the more basic bow even if it offers significant advantages in base accuracy or speed, since his powerdraw would be capped.

I'm open to implenting any or all of these--let me know which ones you think are advisable--as well as any other ideas.

[Michcos]

Wow guys you should write a book about Viking Conquest.

[Hooded Horse]

Tuidjy certainly could--when I was first learning to play I looked up and read a lot of his posts. They are a goldmine of strategic advice.

[Tuidjy]

TYTY135 eredeti hozzászólása:

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

TYTY135, I think that what really got me going is that I tested your mod with an existing character, who was already a powerful archer, and the featured longbow felt like an SKS in his hands - quick firing and pinpoint accurate.

Or do you mean you created your own modified file with my proposed bow changes? I think your criticsm is fair in any event, just trying to figure out exactly what is attributable to what.

I edited in the reloads and accuracy of the bows. I did not even change the slings, to be honest, those I tried to estimate.

As to what is attributable to what, the problem is that my character is pretty much the ultimate archer. Because elite archers have such poor stats, once you make them more useful, in my character's hands, the modified bows become divine.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

Have you considered improving the Power Draw of elite archers, to give yourself more room for fine tuning ranged unit balance? This way you will be able to keep bows relevant for troops without turning overpowered for players and possibly companions.

That would be the best solution, unfortunately, changes to WP and skills are not saved game compatible, and saved game compatibility with vanilla saves is a major design principle.

Your self-imposed requirement of save compatibility is holding your mod back. I agree that it makes a lot of sense to let players continue their campaign, but it really restricts what you can do, or rather how much you can fix the problems inherent in vanilla VC.

And, I'll say it again, the biggest problem is that when you are unable to improve the troops, you risk making the player's experience completely unrealistic. Vanilla VC has OK player experience, and pathetic archer troops. To be honest, all ranged weapons in vanilla have that disconnect - for example, javelins are effective for troops, and simply devastating in a smart player's hands.

I'm open to any sugestions to address your concern, here are a couple of possibilities I'd love to get your advice on (please suggest any other ideas as well):

-snip-

I will look into this, and think about it, but I have the suspicion that without changing the troops, you will always have a disconnect between player and troops, no matter how much you tune weapons and ammo.

You are trying to balance the troops, and particularly to prevent ranged troops from being irrelevant, I get that, but I think that the skirmishers' real problem is the A.I. You are trying to change equipment so that, despite their poor stats and mediocre A.I, the skirmishers are relevant against infantry with much high stats, decent A.I. (shield wall) But then, that same equipment feels really weird in the hands of a smart player with a well built character.

-----------

By the way, I apologize about the "Handguns are super accurate, etc." comparison. I did get the described feeling with the plugged-in bow stats, but it is hardly your fault, because you are working with restrictions that pretty much force the situation.

[Hooded Horse]

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

Your self-imposed requirement of save compatibility is keeping you back. I agree that it makes a lot of sense to let players continue their campaign, but it really restricts what you can do, or rather how much you can fix the problems inherent in vanilla VC.

I agree, and I may abandon it at some point.

I can scale back my goals for now, and if we can achieve a 30% solution to the AI unit problem while not harming player balance much or at all, I'd like to do that as a temporary fix, and then work more on it with archer stat changes in a possible future save incompatible version.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

for example, javelins are effective for troops, and simply devastating in a smart player's hands.

I made some javilin changes in 5.0 as well. Basically, the player favorite (horsemen javilins with 12 ammo) is pretty much the same (an imperceptible tiny change in the hidden stat shot speed to fit the new logical order of projectile weight to speed), the 8 ammo heavy javilins a very slight boost, and the more basic javilins and throwing spears got good boosts, making each offer a sensible relaitonship between damage, shot speed/range, and ammo. The irish/pict javilins are still slightly better, but no more magical extreme javilin technology differences.

Haven't made the AI aim smarter, but there should be less horses running looking like pincushions but perfectly fine now. ;)

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

biggest problem is that when you are unable to improve the troops, you risk making the player's experience completely unrealistic.

A valid concern--I have tried to carefully avoid it in the past by mostly only buffing the stuff players don't use. For example, I gave the most common swords a +4 slashing bonus. Like the 23c base damage swords that players never touch--every player just uses an axe, or a proper briton sword, or a rich sword in the early game. But now the top units that get these swords are more capable, and their abilities reflect how swords were valued in Viking culture.

Also, the nerf I did for Orm's Lorrica down to the level of a bear lorrica should help a bit with player balance. ;)

When I have buffed something the player uses, I have always tried to ensure it is still weaker than something else they can obtain just as easily. So I made a couple unique quest swords (draganduil and blyrbintr or however they are spelled) get a damage bonus, going from 28c to 32c, because they are short (80 length) and still weaker than other swords the player can get with equal trouble.

So now you are probably wondering how those design principles let me buff the featured longbow. The simple answer is--I compared the buffed feature longbow to a player using the VC pictish crossbow, figured his opportunity cost from lost skillpoints to get the powerdraw skill up, and the two seemed in balance.

I see my logical error there. ;) The pictish crossbow is crazy powerful.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

I will look into this, and think about it, but I have the suspicion that without changing the troops, you will always have a disconnect between player and troops, no matter how much you tune weapons and ammo.

Agreed, and some of the bow rebalancing may have to wait until a future save incompatible version then.

I am hoping we can achieve some improvement in the meantime, by some version of those scaled buffs to only improve the worse bows. At the very least, just buff the basic longbow and leave the featured alone, so the player doesn't benefit, but the 85 WP AI archers get a little boost--but I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

You are trying to change equipment so that, despite their poor stats and mediocre A.I, the skirmishers are relevant against infantry with much high stats, decent A.I. (shield wall)

My goal is a bit more modest than this. Basically:

1) I want archers to be a reasonable choice vs other skirmisher (slingers mainly), if the player decides to use skirmishers (which is almost certainly a suboptimal choice for either slingers or archers, only the unrealistic pictish crossbowmen are really effective choices)

2) I want my test with that +46 body armor mail shirt I described earlier to go a little worse. The norse Tier 2 basic archers were missing me 9 out of 10 times even though I was standing right in front of them, and they were only doing about 10 damage per hit. I'd like them to hit a bit more often, and do about 15 damage per hit, if an armored man is stupid enough to just wade in without a shield (because these are actually comparitively good archers--the angle and saxons are much worse).

But you are right--this won't make skirmishers a viable part of a player army really. Windrider made that point earlier, and asked for archers to be piercing instead of cutting, which would probably do that (allowing them to break shields and pierce armor), but I'm mostly ok with leaving them on the periphery of warfare in VC. At least, I wouldn't want to change that at the expense of realism--basically, your point about the real solution involving AI improvements and unit stat changes. We need a good skirmisher AI behavior most of all, run away and then resume firing, don't draw your dagger and charge because someone got close.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

By the way, I apologize about the "Handguns are super accurate, etc." comparison. I did get the described feeling with the plugged-in bow stats, but it is hardly your fault, because you are working with restrictions that pretty much force the situation.

No problem, I'm used to spirited debate, and I appreciate you helping me think through these issues.

BTW, there are some other archery related weird VC mechanics changing in the 5.0 test version, if you have any thoughts:

- First, vanilla VC gave a 300% accuracy modifier to defenders in sieges, basically giving them magical arrows. After some discussion at reddit we nerfed that to 150%, keeping some bonus to reflect defenders practicing marking range in their home terrain. Open to any thoughts.

- Vanilla VC gave attackers in sieges a 50% accuracy modifier. I couldn't think of any justification for people being suddenly unable to use their bows, so I removed that.

- Vanilla VC had a 6 specified for velocity in kinetic energy in the module.ini to determine dropoff of missle damage. Ie, near as I can figure kinetic energy looked like 1/2 * m * v^6, which semed to be an alternate reality physics. I couldn't be sure that was happening, but since I know 2.0 is correct (and native warband uses 1.9), I changed it to 2.0. Testing showed no large difference in archery or throwing damage in midrange, so I am not sure exactly what is happening, probably missles don't lose speed fast enough, or maybe warband doesn't treat it as a full exponent if above 2 (I know 1.0 is linear and 2.0 is squared, so I assume it is defining an exponent, but not sure), but this will probably make things more realistic in some circumstances, maybe shooting up a hill or something. At any rate, a 2.0 as something closer to native 1.9 seemed much better and safer than vanilla VC 6.0.

[Windrider]

Michcos eredeti hozzászólása:

Wow guys you should write a book about Viking Conquest.

I don't know if I'm included but I thank you anyway :D


@TYTY135 - You could make a second mod that isn't savegame compatible and that has all these particular situations fixed in the "best" way. The majority of the changes could be the same for both mods if the results are similar so that you don't have to do the same work twice.

I don't know if I explained it clearly since right now it's late at night for me XD

About what happened with Tuidjy's archery test, I believe that it should be considered as... what can happen when things are pushed to the extreme, for my current lack of better wording. He knows what to do in order to maximise skills and proficiencies and most of the players will probably never experience the same thing. Not on the same scale, at least.

I know he isn't going to see this part about him, for some reason XD

[Hooded Horse]

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

You could make a second mod that isn't savegame compatible and that has all these particular situations fixed in the "best" way.

That's a very good idea, and I am likely to do it at some point. But I'm a bit exhausted right now, and might need a break after 5.0.

The mod already has 10+ bug fixes for vanilla VC bugs, 100+ balance improvements, and tons of rewritten mechanics, and it has only been a couple of weeks since initial release

The mechanics took a lot of testing, like I replaced the vanilla VC leveled world where bandit party sizes depend on player party power with a nice objective and random system (further improving in 5.0), wrote subtantial improvements to the looting system (fixing the warband glitch where killing a peasant first in battle often blocks high level unit gear from the loot pile), wrote a viable berserker trait that involved a 100+ user comment reddit thread ranging from accounts in the sagas to the gritty details of game mechanics...

So I'm going to take a bit of a vacation for a bit after 5.0, or maybe after 5.1 if it is needed, and rest up before creating new versions. :)

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't know if I explained it clearly since right now it's late at night for me XD

You did, and all your feedback has been clear and useful. Your input is greatly appreciated.

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

Tuidjy's archery test, I believe that it should be considered as... what can happen when things are pushed to the extreme

I think he agrees, he said this above:

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

the problem is that my character is pretty much the ultimate archer.

Still, his point is valid that I shouldn't unduly hurt the balance of the player archer playstyle while putting a band-aid on AI archers. It is probably rare for a player to be a primary foot-archer in VC, but still we want to account for it as far as we can.

I am probably going to push out 5.0 tonight or tomorow (tomorrow more likely), and do some version of what was discussed above (leaning towards making the lowest level longbow powerdraw 0, to make it usable easily by the unskilled archers, and reducing accuracy slightly on all bows, and collapsing the damage differences a bit, to be 30/31/32.).

That is assuming I don't get further feedback from Tuidjy before then, in which case his changes will go to 5.1.

Here's another possible idea: I am somewhat considering going farther, and dropping the powerdraw requirement on all bows, to 0/1/2, so that all the units can use them better.

Then, I could take one of the unique longbow items, like the "dark hunter", that is not currently in the game, make it a higher powerdraw requirement bow to fit the archer player's needs, make it otherwise identical to the featured longbow, and then plop it into the tournament rewards selection (so the player has a 1/20 chance of getting it when winning a tournament).

Make the message something like "a special bow fit for a hero with the strength of Odysseus is given to you."

Then the archer player gets his high powerdraw bow access, and the AI units get powerdraw bows more within their capabilities.

Would also seem somewhat realistic, in that the current bows having the same PD requirement as the best archers is a little odd, as I think warband models it so that +4 over requirement is ideal for archer performance?

Tuidjy and Windrider, any thoughts on that idea?

I will also look forward to Tuidjy's feedback on the original questions, and use them for 5.1 or 6.0 even if they don't make it in time for 5.0. He is an experienced archer, in both real-life and game, so I will give great weight towards following what he thinks best.

[Windrider]

On the idea of adding the special bow as a possible reward for the tournaments or on the idea of reducing the power draw requirements of the bows?

If it's the first one, I think it's fine. The devs didn't want to add it for some reason (probably the same one behind the current state of the archers) but since it's an item just for the player and the companions there shouldn't be any actual problem.

If it's the second one, increasing base damage and reducing the power draw requirement is almost the same thing. I mean, it isn't entirely true but I don't know the numbers in the accuracy and steady aim changes and proficiency plays a bigger role in both.

Maybe it's just me but I feel that a direct increase in damage is more controllable and predictable than an indirect increase. Also, realistically speaking, you probably reach a point when drawing a bow where more physical strength won't actually change how the arrow performs but I'm just speculating and Tuidjy could tell us more.

This being said, the same increase for every bow would probably give an "advantage" to the ones with lower base damage so it'd be better to scale it either with flat numbers (for example +2/+3/+4) or by % (+% base damage for all bows).

I'm a bit lost in all of this reducing/increasing stats so, to be clear, I'm taking of improvements on the current ingame damage stats.

All I know about reload speed and accuracy is that they should be inversely proportional but the exact numbers are a mystery to me and they could stay the same as they currently are if there isn't any big problem with them.


P.S. About the +4 PD requirement, that is correct. For reference: http://mountandblade.wikia.com/wiki/Skills

[Hooded Horse]

I think you misunderstand:

First, lowering the powerdraw requirement on current bows would not affect their damage in AI hands one way or another. Instead, it would raise their accuracy substantially, as bows are much more accurate when you are +3 over initial powerdraw requirement. This would allow me to remove all accuracy increases from the bows, because the AI troops wouldn't need them anymore.

So I would remove all speed and accuracy boosts I made to original bows, replacing them with a lowered powerdraw that only helps weak archers, like the AI, handle them better. Damage bonuses would be left in place, though like dropped to the 30/31/32 level, collapsing the bonuses for the better bows a bit.

This would also promote realism, as an archer in warband would have a bow with a drawweight designed for them, ie -3 below their PD skill.

Second, I would NOT add the overpowered special bow itself. I would add an identical copy of the featured longbow before the PD reduction, copied over to replace the original special bow, thus permitting a high powerdraw option for the archer player character. I might give a slight up in missle shot speed (very slight) for realism purposes, and a single additional point of damage, and a small reduction in reload speed, to fit the locail order of bow progression and promote immersion, but it would not be enough to be noticable really.

I am against player-only special items (hence, I nerfed Orm's Lorrica) as they are like cheats. The new special bow would not be that at all--it would simply be a higher powerdraw version of an AI bow, that no AI troop would ever want because it is too strong for them. Hence, the reference to Odysseus's bow, which was too strong for any of the suitors to his wife to draw.

I might actually add it as a sale item to special weaponsmiths, maybe best to not have it only subject to the randomness of tournament rewards.

I think this might address Tuidjy's concerns--ie, the AI troops get their boost by having bows designed for their limitied skills, but bows don't become more accurate themselves, while the player has a high PD option available to fit him. The only substantial boost to the player would be also benefiting from the damage increase, which raises far fewer issues.

[Windrider]

Since you mentioned the +4 PD requirement and that you wanted to reduce it for the bows, I imagined you were thinking about the increases for the AI XD

Anyway, if you think it makes your changes a bit less complex then go for it. I personally find that the accuracy of the AI is somewhat ok at least against multiple targets (they miss their actual target but hit another one instead) but I never tested it or payed too much attention so it's up to you. Just do it! :D

As long as they are balanced, player-only items make sense when you think about it. Back in the day nobles and rich people in general would buy and order not only the best armors and weapons available (depending on their wealth) but they would also personalize them a little, in some cases.

I have no idea of the stats of this special bow but if you can change it so it isn't clearly better than the next best bow in the game, it can still be slightly better. I'm just sharing a thought, though ;)

[Hooded Horse]

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

Since you mentioned the +4 PD requirement and that you wanted to reduce it for the bows, I imagined you were thinking about the increases for the AI XD

I am. I think we are on the same page now, but just to make sure anyone else reading this understands, here's how it works:

Powerdraw gives bonus damage based on min(bow PD requirement +4, Player PD)

Accuracy is severely reduced until you exceed the PD requirement of a bow by 3.

The AI troops have 3 or 4 has their PD skill.

Their bows have 2/3/4 as their PD requirements.

Hence, before and after reducing those to 0/1/2, the AI gets the full bonus from damage, either way.

But before the AI suffered penalties to their accuracy, after, they won't. As is realistic--they should have bows designed for them.

Then we have to make a new version of a bow with higher powerdraw to accomodate the player, but it otherwise will largely be the same as the normal bows.

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

As long as they are balanced, player-only items make sense when you think about it.

By definition, a player only, more powerful item is never balanced.

The only exception is if it requires significant strategic tradeoffs to get. That doesn't work in Viking Conquest really. It does for Pendor, because an entire gem system is based around it.

Player only items are fine if they aren't any better, just different.

The vanilla VC Orm's Lorrica was a cheat item--+10 body armor over best other armor, and lighter. The VC Balance Mod version is a good example of a balanced player-only item--slightly different than the bear lorrica but the same in usefulness.

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

Back in the day nobles and rich people in general would buy and order not only the best armors and weapons available

Which is available from paying to improve items at the smith.

Actually the unbalanced thing is that the VC devs gave only normal, no modifer armor and weapons to the AI Lords. If I ever do the save incompatible version, some of the richer, higher lords are getting reinforced armor and tempered swords.

Having the base stats of the item be better is unfair. That is part of why I gave a very slight boost to the Ulfberht sword (+1 slashing) to make it competive with the player only unique swords.

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

I have no idea of the stats of this special bow but if you can change it so it isn't clearly better than the next best bow in the game, it can still be slightly better.

Here we are in agreement, however, it being better will come from the player having high powerdraw skill, and it enabling the use of that skill, not the base stats of the bow itself. It will basically function exactly like the old vanilla featured longbow, but with a bit more damage.

[Hooded Horse]

Ah, I found an even easier solution.

No need for a special bow--I just enabled masterwork modifier for all bows (and let the featured longbow appear in shops).

With masterwork, it gets a +4 PD, so using the new 0/1/2 PD base requirements, the masterwork featured longbow is PD 6, meaning a player with PD 10 can get his full bonus, just like with a strong featured longbow in the old 2/3/4 PD requirements.

I removed all previous accuracy and speed increases from bows, the AI having the powerdraw skill to actually handle their weapons should be enough of a boost.

So the only changes are:

- +4-+6 damage, stronger for the weaker bows, bringing them to 30c/31c/32c

- drop the powerdraw requirement on bows to 0/1/2

- enable masterwork (which gives an additional small damage boost over strong, but not much, just +2, and a small increase in speed, but only +1 over base or +4 over strong, very small)

- make featured longbow appear in shops (didn't see a reason to block it, in units it coexists with elite longbow, which does appear in shops). This will let a player get a small chance of finding a masterwork one even without playing with smith improvements.

Open to any suggestions or comments on this.

[Tuidjy]

TYTY135 eredeti hozzászólása:

Windrider eredeti hozzászólása:

Since you mentioned the +4 PD requirement and that you wanted to reduce it for the bows, I imagined you were thinking about the increases for the AI XD

Powerdraw gives bonus damage based on max(bow PD requirement +4, Player PD)

Actually, it is min(PDbow + 4, PDplayer)

Think of it this way. If the bow has PD 1 and the player PD 10, do you get a bonus from the PD10, or just from PD 5?

The vanilla VC Orm's Lorrica was a cheat item--+10 body armor over best other armor, and lighter.

And gilded. If you are going to list sins, don't forget that one. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's historically accurate, but it is such a freaking eye sore.

============

As for the rest, you ninja'd my comments.

============

But before the AI suffered penalties to their accuracy, after, they won't. As is realistic--they should have bows designed for them.

Then we have to make a new version of a bow with higher powerdraw to accomodate the player, but it otherwise will largely be the same as the normal bows.

This is a very good way of doing things, if you have to leave the troops unchanged. Without that requirement, I would rather see bows with realistic draw weights.

My rule of thumb (when I used to mod) used to be that Power Draw 10 is the historical maximum, i.e. 140 pounds, and that the scaling is linear. Thus, for example, my favorite 65 pound bow for would be somewhere between Power Draw four and five.

By the way, don't forget to properly configure how much the bow can be improved. Power Draw 6 is the sweet spot, so the basic version should probably be Power Draw 4.

[Hooded Horse]

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

Actually, it is min(PDbow + 4, PDplayer)

Right you are--a typo on my part. I should proofread my comments better. :) I'll edit the post to fix it.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

My rule of thumb (when I used to mod) used to be that Power Draw 10 is the historical maximum, i.e. 140 pounds, and that the scaling is linear. Thus, for example, my favorite 65 pound bow for would be somewhere between Power Draw four and five.

I'll do this for any future save incompatible version, thanks for this.

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

And gilded. If you are going to list sins, don't forget that one. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's historically accurate, but it is such a freaking eye sore.

I had one player personally thank me for nerfing it, because he said he hated how it looked, but being so powerful he felt bad not using it. ;)

Tuidjy eredeti hozzászólása:

you ninja'd my comments.

Yep, we should be all set with the new later solution of enabling masterwork, for 2+4=6 PD.

Thanks for all the advice here, I think the implementation is much improved from your criticism.

[Hooded Horse]

Ok, I give up--going to fix it the right way, with save incompatible troop stat changes. The mod will still work with old games, just won't have the skill changes show up.

Anyway, what I did for archers is in Part 7 of the 5.0 changelog here: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,373658.msg8922766.html#msg8922766

Basically, PD skill icnreases,WP increases, generally around +2-+3 PD and +40-+50 WP.

Reverted all prior changes to bows, back to vanilla damage and such, no masterwork, etc.

Going to take me longer to finish it now, but you guys were right, best to fix the core issues.