Why do people say horse archers are useless in SP

[AnputVT]

I send my cav in to keep them busy whilst making my horse archers follow me, then i circle around the enemy and fill them with holes, togheter with my mobile machine gun lol.

[Tuidjy]

I have heard people say that horse archers are overpowered, and I know that a player horse archer is, by far, the most powerful entity in Native Warband... and in every single mod that allows a ranged weapon to be fired from horseback, its user reigns supreme.

Horse archer troops are hard to lead properly, and may be too much trouble to use, but in many mods, like for example, Floris Expanded, they are the most versatile troop line. In Floris Expanded, if you need to pick one single troop line to quickly unite Calradia, the Khergit Mandughai is it.

So as far as I am concerned, you've just raised a strawman for us to use for target practice.

[AnputVT]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

I have heard people say that horse archers are overpowered, and I know that a player horse archer is, by far, the most powerful entity in Native Warband... and in every single mod that allows a ranged weapon to be fired from horseback, its user reigns supreme.

Horse archer troops are hard to lead properly, and may be too much trouble to use, but in many mods, like for example, Floris Expanded, they are the most versatile troop line. In Floris Expanded, if you need to pick one single troop line to quickly unite Calradia, the Khergit Mandughai is it.

So as far as I am concerned, you've just raised a strawman for a us to use for target practice.

Ii dont find them hard to control, i just let them follow me and me and set them at fire at will, then i just circle the enemy whilst also shooting myself, my mamlukes keep them busy anyways. I play native atm btw.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by DAANHHH:

I send my cav in to keep them busy whilst making my horse archers follow me, then i circle around the enemy and fill them with holes, togheter with my mobile machine gun lol.

I've never heard of anyone saying that horse-archers are useless in SP. At least, not players that I was sure were controlling their horse-archers properly or being a good horse-archer, themselves.

I don't play native, anymore, and the closest to it that I play is Floris. In Floris, using horse-archers and how you use them is completely dependent upon the composition of the enemy. If they have lots of mounted troops, you have to be very careful when committing your horse-archers.

[EthanT]

Most people don't say they are useless, just not worth the time to use. Unless you yourself are also a horse archer and make them follow you 24/7 in a battle it will be nigh impossible to effectively micro manage them mid battle. If you're not a horse archer and you're not microing them constantly they will just fire one or two arrows and charge to their deaths, making them effectively garbage light cavalry. In that respect, if you aren't a horse archer who is microing them, they're pretty much garbage.

This changes with Floris because you can order your horse archers to avoid melee and actually skirmish. In Native they're only useful if you stay on their ass with commands 24/7 otherwise they just find the best way to kill themselves.

[AnputVT]

Originally posted by EthanT:

Most people don't say they are useless, just not worth the time to use. Unless you yourself are also a horse archer and make them follow you 24/7 in a battle it will be nigh impossible to effectively micro manage them mid battle. If you're not a horse archer and you're not microing them constantly they will just fire one or two arrows and charge to their deaths, making them effectively garbage light cavalry. In that respect, if you aren't a horse archer who is microing them, they're pretty much garbage.

This changes with Floris because you can order your horse archers to avoid melee and actually skirmish. In Native they're only useful if you stay on their ass with commands 24/7 otherwise they just find the best way to kill themselves.

I dont get that because i dont see a reason to not have a bow lol, almost all videos i see people have tincan armor a 2h and a bow, which is kind of the best build lol, the utility of a bow is way too much to skip, even if you take a 1h/lance shield you can still have a bow and a large bag of arrows.

[EthanT]

What you feel is the "best build" may be best for you, but not for others. I don't like regular bows, or 2H weapons. I play on 100% and I'm about 12 centers from uniting Calradia. I use 1H, Shield, Siege Crossbow, Bolts.

Why?

I fight better and last longer with 1H + Shield than 2H. I use Rhodok Sharpshooters for my ranged units, which makes a Crossbow a better choice because I can harvest bolts from my fallen archers, eliminating the need for me to keep stacks in my baggage or weapon slots.

That's my playstyle, and I can attest that it works quite well. Since I'm a frontline fighter, I don't always have time or line of sight to CONSTANTLY order horse archers around before they inevitably kill themselves in stupidity.

If you're good you can make pretty much ANY army work. My Floris file is 100% Nord Infantry. No archers, no cavalry, nothing but melee. It works. Your build really doesn't matter much because victory can be attained just by exploiting the ridiculously braindead AI.

[AnputVT]

Originally posted by EthanT:

What you feel is the "best build" may be best for you, but not for others. I don't like regular bows, or 2H weapons. I play on 100% and I'm about 12 centers from uniting Calradia. I use 1H, Shield, Siege Crossbow, Bolts.

Why?

I fight better and last longer with 1H + Shield than 2H. I use Rhodok Sharpshooters for my ranged units, which makes a Crossbow a better choice because I can harvest bolts from my fallen archers, eliminating the need for me to keep stacks in my baggage or weapon slots.

That's my playstyle, and I can attest that it works quite well. Since I'm a frontline fighter, I don't always have time or line of sight to CONSTANTLY order horse archers around before they inevitably kill themselves in stupidity.

If you're good you can make pretty much ANY army work. My Floris file is 100% Nord Infantry. No archers, no cavalry, nothing but melee. It works. Your build really doesn't matter much because victory can be attained just by exploiting the ridiculously braindead AI.

I said 2h or 1h and shield, and you still do carry a ranged weapon as i said too, the utility of a ranged weapon is too much to pass over, especially on horseback imo. You also say you dont like regular bows, thats prefference. What im talking about isnt best build for a persons preffered playstyle but best build in general.

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

I have heard people say that horse archers are overpowered, and I know that a player horse archer is, by far, the most powerful entity in Native Warband... and in every single mod that allows a ranged weapon to be fired from horseback, its user reigns supreme.

what he said^

[EthanT]

I only ever use a ranged weapon in a siege. Otherwise I find I've killed a handful of people in the time i could've killed 10 with my sword

You did also specifically say "tincan armor, 2H, and a bow"

Again, you can say a horse archer reigns supreme but I disagree. Sure, you can take on a 500 man army with nothing but your bow. That's fine. Congrats. I'm sure you had fun riding in circes for HOURS to solo that army.

Horse archers are excellent if the player is ALSO a horse archer. Unless you spend time microing them constantly THEY WILL DIE LIKE DOGS. Plain and simple, thats the facts. If you can't be bothered to effectively babysit them then they are AT BEST really bad light cavalry.

If you're unwilling to babysit horse archers into effectiveness, you'd be better served putting different troops in your army. Under AI control or the control of an innattentive/distracted melee character, horse archers suck horribly.

[AnputVT]

Originally posted by EthanT:

I only ever use a ranged weapon in a siege. Otherwise I find I've killed a handful of people in the time i could've killed 10 with my sword

You did also specifically say "tincan armor, 2H, and a bow"

Again, you can say a horse archer reigns supreme but I disagree. Sure, you can take on a 500 man army with nothing but your bow. That's fine. Congrats. I'm sure you had fun riding in circes for HOURS to solo that army.

Horse archers are excellent if the player is ALSO a horse archer. Unless you spend time microing them constantly THEY WILL DIE LIKE DOGS. Plain and simple, thats the facts. If you can't be bothered to effectively babysit them then they are AT BEST really bad light cavalry.

If you're unwilling to babysit horse archers into effectiveness, you'd be better served putting different troops in your army. Under AI control or the control of an innattentive/distracted melee character, horse archers suck horribly.

this is what i said after it.

Originally posted by DAANHHH:

even if you take a 1h/lance shield you can still have a bow and a large bag of arrows

The point is that basically being a swadian knight with a bow is the most efficient, also its a matter of practice, i kill at the same if not faster rate with my bow on horseback then with a melle weapon.

[EthanT]

That's fine for the player. When used properly, in Native, Horse Archers are beastly.

However

If the player isnt a horse archer, then Horse Archers are one of the worst units in the game because of how much player management is required to make them shine. Without your guidance, they are a terrible unit prone to mass suicide.

I don't dispute that bows are amazing and super useful. Of course they are. I dislike using them, and prefer the crossbow since I only ever use a bow during a siege to cheese the AI. In which case, Siege Crossbow is King. The original question was about horse archer units, which do suck unless you like babysitting

[AnputVT]

Originally posted by EthanT:

That's fine for the player. When used properly, in Native, Horse Archers are beastly.

However

If the player isnt a horse archer, then Horse Archers are one of the worst units in the game because of how much player management is required to make them shine. Without your guidance, they are a terrible unit prone to mass suicide.

I don't dispute that bows are amazing and super useful. Of course they are. I dislike using them, and prefer the crossbow since I only ever use a bow during a siege to cheese the AI. In which case, Siege Crossbow is King. The original question was about horse archer units, which do suck unless you like babysitting

You are right at that, i was going of-topic and began elaborating on player equipment more.

[LSD]

People don't like them because they run to the edge of the map all the time and die. Even if they don't die, they prolong simple battles for no other reason than because they lack competent pathfinding AI.

The only really useless troop is the Rhodok spear guy. Most of the time they have a 2 handed pole with no shield, so they die in droves, and their spear AI is crappy against horses and teeeeerible in melee.

[AnputVT]

Originally posted by LSD:

People don't like them because they run to the edge of the map all the time and die. Even if they don't die, they prolong simple battles for no other reason than because they lack competent pathfinding AI.

The only really useless troop is the Rhodok spear guy. Most of the time they have a 2 handed pole with no shield, so they die in droves, and their spear AI is crappy against horses and teeeeerible in melee.

I mean no unit is truly useless without command, even tho the rhodok infantry would need a lot, i see them being decent couples with rhodok xbows of veagir archers forming a defensive line. Which would take a couple of commands tho and im not sure if it would be worth it probably not lol..

[Tuidjy]

As I said before, without a lot of attention spent on them, horse archers are sub-optimal. But if you are willing to command them properly, they are awesome.

Everyone understands that if you can make them skirmish in the field, they are more powerful than if they are left under Native AI control. But this is far from the only way to use them, nor the only reason for which they are useful.

Here are a few things that you can do with horse archers:
- You can be super mobile on the strategy map, and prey on weak lords, keeping a whole nation army-less, defeating the armies of a campaign in detail, or avoiding anyone stronger than you.
- You can dismount your horse archers, and thus create a wall of horses that will disrupt any charge, turning the attackers into sitting ducks to be picked off by the dismounted archers who will be even more accurate.
- You can assign your different tiers to different division, so that you divide them in groups meant to harass, to disrupt and snipe, or to catch in crossfires.

In mods like Floris Expanded or Prophecy of Pendor, where horse archers can end up with great armor, and decent melee skills, you can do very well by not employing any other troop types. Sure, many troops will devastate them in hand to hand combat, but first they have to get there. Lead your horse archers properly, and you will have almost no casualties, because by the time the enemy makes it into melee range, there won't be much left... if anything.

It's been a long time, but I remember farming an unique Pendor army for its female low tier followers, because they would upgrade into some insane horse archers with maces as sidearms. And I most definitely remember my firing squads of dismounted Mandukhai in Floris.

[Atomicbean]

You can also toss your horse archers behind your normal archers, without having them move - They'll have slightly more accuracy than a 2nd row of on-foot archers would since they're above the people in front of them, and when used this way, generally completely decimate anything if they're on top of a hill. Honestly, just using horse archers as normal archers works better than using normal archers in most mods due to quite a few having inflated skill values and/or gear. You move faster on campaign map, they can get in position faster, they can barricade areas with their horses, etc. You generally end up trading a little bit of accuracy/damage/survivability for vastly increased mobility and utility.