"Commander build" should favour INT or CHR?

[Leigh]

Few disclaimers, playing unmodded Native, have played a bit of the game in the past but this is my first proper, serious playthrough.

I'm building a "Up and coming General", so while I created the character with combat in mind for when the party is small, now my band of men is growing I am phasing into the "commander" role.

I understand the basics: Go CHR for the numbers, the wage reduction, roll in denars and just throw elite troops at things. Go INT and you will be offering a ton of buffs to your army, making them near invincible.

But, which should it favour?

I have gotten my STR and AGI to 12 each, which I understand is fine for a commander. I am mostly Sword/Shield when unmounted, and I currently use a polearm for mounted combat. (I want to get a proper lance at some point)

So, which do you think best fits the role? Favour INT over CHR for a smaller but stronger army? Or CHR over INT for the millions you will earn, the lower wages and better morale, and ability to destroy your GPU and CPU if you edit the on-field cap over the 150 normal cap?

I see benefit to both, but for the build to work better/be more suited to the roleplay, one has to be picked over the other, right?

[Tuidjy]

There is some argument about this, but as far as I am concerned, Charisma is sub-optimal for each and every single build. Get 4 Leadership at creation, raise it to 5 by reading a book, and leave Charisma at 7. All Charisma does is save you money. Money is easy to come by when you know what you are doing.

In my opinion, there are two superior builds:

(A) Combat beast: Strength 30, Agility 30, and Intelligence as far as it will go, which is 12+ if you really go for earning experience with your main character.

(B) Egghead

Strength: 15+ (Go to 15 at once, then use skill points from Intelligence to max combat skills)
Agility: 15+ (Go to 12 to ride a charger, go to 15 when proficiencies reach the soft limit)
Intelligence: 27 (26 natural, 1 from a book)
Charisma: 7 (from character generation)

Training, Surgery, Engineering, Path-finding: 10 (9 natural, +1 from books)
Power Strike, Weapon Mastery, Riding, Iron Skin: 5+ (raise those early)
Spotting, First Aid, Leadership: 5
Shield, Athletics: raise as available

Weapons:
- Sword (long arming sword, balanced )
- Shield (huscarl shield, reinforced)
- Crossbow (siege crossbow, masterwork)
- Quiver (steel, large size)

[Leigh]

Thanks for that, will think it over/look it over. I mean, I have a ways to go, but I got dibs on a Bandit Camp so combat exp is reasonably easy to find at the moment.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by Lei:

Thanks for that, will think it over/look it over. I mean, I have a ways to go, but I got dibs on a Bandit Camp so combat exp is reasonably easy to find at the moment.

Strength 15 and Agility 15 is enough to make your main character very powerful compared to any A.I. character except for your combat beast specc'd companions.

Experience will not be as easy to come as it would be for a combat beast character (I've done level 38 in 41 days) but you will be able to get your party skill reasonably high by level 30, and that's easy to reach.

------------

For your sword, a balanced elite scimitar is just as good as a balanced long arming sword (somewhat faster, slightly shorter, slightly less damaging)

It's just that, aesthetically, the sword goes better with crossbows, and the scimitar with recurved horse bows - Western knight vs Eastern steppe warrior.

[ULTRA]

It's deffo INT, just forget CHA since the buff to your party size will not be enough to win you battles and trade 2-3 is more than enough

Also you can cheese CHA with high renown (party size increase) and just general economic dominance (enterprises and proper arrangement of garrison to offset taxes), but you cannot artificially inflate your INT skills

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

There is some argument about this, but as far as I am concerned, Charisma is sub-optimal for each and every single build. Get 4 Leadership at creation, raise it to 5 by reading a book, and leave Charisma at 7. All Charisma does is save you money. Money is easy to come by when you know what you are doing.

In my opinion, there are two superior builds:

(A) Combat beast: Strength 30, Agility 30, and Intelligence as far as it will go, which is 12+ if you really go for earning experience with your main character.

(B) Egghead

Strength: 15+ (Go to 15 at once, then use skill points from Intelligence to max combat skills)
Agility: 15+ (Go to 12 to ride a charger, go to 15 when proficiencies reach the soft limit)
Intelligence: 27 (26 natural, 1 from a book)
Charisma: 7 (from character generation)

Training, Surgery, Engineering, Path-finding: 10 (9 natural, +1 from books)
Power Strike, Weapon Mastery, Riding, Iron Skin: 5+ (raise those early)
Spotting, First Aid, Leadership: 5
Shield, Athletics: raise as available

Weapons:
- Sword (long arming sword, balanced )
- Shield (huscarl shield, reinforced)
- Crossbow (siege crossbow, masterwork)
- Quiver (steel, large size)

It is only possible to get 3 leadership at creation + 1 from a book. (still not really a vital skill)

There is no book for pathfinding so going that deep into it seems questionable if you are not willing to go all the way to 30 INT.

For the bigger question. INT over CHA build for sure.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

It is only possible to get 3 leadership at creation + 1 from a book. (still not really a vital skill)

There is no book for pathfinding so going that deep into it seems questionable if you are not willing to go all the way to 30 INT.

I must be thinking of some mod. Albi (?) Mappa Mundi. It's been more than an year since I've played Native. Maybe I should revisit it.

But yeah, both skills only increase linearly, so it is not crucial how far you go.

Engineer, Surgeon, Training effects are actually really useful to have at 10, because the effects are disproportionate to the actual skill increase.

[JtDarth]

As Tuidjy indicated, in native, charisma is your dump stat. Some mods take pains to change that, but for most it's still the dump stat. Intelligence has far more tangible and valuable effects.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by JtDarth:

Some mods take pains to change that, but for most it's still the dump stat.

Of the top of my head, mods which have successfully turned Charisma into an useful stat:
- Phantasy. Charisma controls Priest's spells, thus is the major source of healing.
- Prophecy of Pendor. Charisma controls Prisoner management, which reduces escape chance
- Gekokujo. Leadership increases the number of special locations you can control
- ... aaand, I cannot think of anything else

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

Originally posted by JtDarth:

Some mods take pains to change that, but for most it's still the dump stat.

Of the top of my head, mods which have successfully turned Charisma into an useful stat:
- Phantasy. Charisma controls Priest's spells, thus is the major source of healing.
- Prophecy of Pendor. Charisma controls Prisoner management, which reduces escape chance
- Gekokujo. Leadership increases the number of special locations you can control
- ... aaand, I cannot think of anything else

The only one I could think of myself was phantasy, I just figured where there's one there is surely more.
The big problem with charisma is really that renown supplants all of it's benefits, except for troop wage, which is really only a problem in the early game.

[RandomDude]

I'd definitely pick CHA over INT. You can get leader only skills with CHA whereas INT skills can be covered by companions. The only downside to this is that companions will take longer to level than your main character.

Usually I have about 12 INT with my main to get at least 4 pathfinding and maybe training, and then party members will have 6-7 in INT skills - that's plenty imo.

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by RandomDude:

I'd definitely pick CHA over INT. You can get leader only skills with CHA whereas INT skills can be covered by companions. The only downside to this is that companions will take longer to level than your main character.

Usually I have about 12 INT with my main to get at least 4 pathfinding and maybe training, and then party members will have 6-7 in INT skills - that's plenty imo.

Literally the only remotely useful skills from CHA are leadership and prisoner management. Trade is completely outmoded by just playing normally, or picking up inventory management from INT. As is leadership, which is outmoded by renown and the normal progression of money.

Meanwhile with INT, you get access to not only far more skills, but all of them other than persuasion have pretty massive effects on your capability in fights and growing your power. INT also gives you a massive benefit in the form of an extra skill point for each point into it.

It is hands down better than charisma, there is no contest.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by RandomDude:

Usually I have about 12 INT with my main to get at least 4 pathfinding and maybe training, and then party members will have 6-7 in INT skills - that's plenty imo.

A companion with Engineering 6 builds a siege tower in over two days. A player character with Engineering 10 builds a siege tower in 6 hours, i.e. he saves two days worth of wages and food.

A companion with Surgery 6 lets about three times as many men die, compared to a player with Surgery 10(+4), who will save more than four men in five.

RandomDude may thinks that's plenty. I do not. Charisma will save you some money. Both being a combat beast and being an egghead will save you a ton of time in besieging, moving around, training replacements and keeping trained soldiers alive.

Time is money, and money can't buy time.

[kristianjakob]

First of all. Prisonmanagement and even Trade can be very useful for outgearing the content. If you dreams in life is to tramble down (F1-F3) various bandits with a group of companions and maybe some manhunters then these are excellent skills.

That aside. The problem with leadership and by extension charm is that being able to field a large army just isnt particularly valuable.


To illustrate.

With a normal int build, 4 leadership personally and having a companion with 10 tactics (+1). I can lead a total of 135 men.

Now, I find a group of enemy lords with a total of 375 men.

What actually happens when I engage them? I am allowed to lead 55 men on the field against 71 of them.


Now suppose I (magically) raised my charm to 30 and leadership to 10. I can now lead 183 men.

When I engage the beforementioned host with my new grand army, the effect just isnt particularly large. I am now allowed to bring 57 men against 69 of theirs instead.


I will have alot more reserves but it will just be very rare that these actually come into play. Typically you will field more or less pure elite armies against armies that are not; so man for man you are vastly superior. And you have other tatical options such as simply disengaging and reengage to keep your troops fresh or to replenish ammo. The bottomline is that leadership will mostly just allow you to run around (slower) with a large body of men of whom most are never going fight.


There is one thing that leadership would be good for. Training soldiers. It is a whole lot more efficient to train armies if you are able to to lead 183 rather than 135. On top of that it is also one of the situations where moral benefits of leadership might become af factor.

[ULTRA]

IMO the best skills are ones that unlock things that would otherwise be categorically out of reach of just grinding, or which improve your efficiency on both the field and in the siege. Power draw, shield, training, and engineer are probably the best skills in the game under these criteria, and half of those are intelligence skills.

[Wenzilber]

My Commander build has always been the following and have always been happy how they turn out :D

Character Generation Choices: All top options (Noble, Page, Squire, etc.) then Wanderlust for the extra +2 AGI

Starting Attributes:

STR: 9
AGI: 9
INT: 6
CHA: 10


THE GOAL ATTRIBUTES

STR: 12
AGI: 12
INT: Dump the rest here (secondary skill)
CHA: 30 primary skill

Reasons:
- Leader only skills are CHA based, not INT (edit: except persuasion, which is not really useful until late in the game). I forget Inventory Management is also INT based, but you can just keep selling expensive loot as you fight. no need to hoard, except food.

- Lots of INT based Companions that can be used instead of PC. Just recruit them.

- Leadership (CHA-based) lets you have over 100+ armies easy and gives a lot of discount in wages. The savings stack up directly the number of your men in your army and in garrisons too.

- Strength 12 will let you wear all armours in the game. You will not be able to use heavy weapons including many masterwork versions though. I roll with either balanced or tempered 1H anyway. If you want heavy and masterwork weapons, feel free to get this to 15. Although, I feel they are best used to getting CHA to 30 first and then INT to get a high Trainer skill (the INT skill that matters since it's the only skill that stack in your party).

- AGI 12 will let you ride the Charger or Sarranid War Horse. Their heavy version has the most horse armour in game. Its armour actually equals that of a Lordly Plate Armour!