Instalar Steam
iniciar sesión
|
idioma
简体中文 (Chino simplificado)
繁體中文 (Chino tradicional)
日本語 (Japonés)
한국어 (Coreano)
ไทย (Tailandés)
български (Búlgaro)
Čeština (Checo)
Dansk (Danés)
Deutsch (Alemán)
English (Inglés)
Español - España
Ελληνικά (Griego)
Français (Francés)
Italiano
Bahasa Indonesia (indonesio)
Magyar (Húngaro)
Nederlands (Holandés)
Norsk (Noruego)
Polski (Polaco)
Português (Portugués de Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portugués - Brasil)
Română (Rumano)
Русский (Ruso)
Suomi (Finés)
Svenska (Sueco)
Türkçe (Turco)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamita)
Українська (Ucraniano)
Informar de un error de traducción
Normas y directrices sobre discusión
Denunciar este mensaje
True; for a skilled archer
"And proficiencies are never equal, because archers level way, way faster. If you need the extra punch in sieges, definitely go with archers."
False; proficiency gain is dependent on the damage per shot and the distance. Crossbows have higher basedamage per shot and are more accurate at distance. It is much easier to train proficiency with crossbows simply by having them engage at greater distances. They do not scale well though
Because I have literally dozens of saved games, where I have companions with similar stats, who have been with me for similar amounts of time, and the ones with bows always have much higher proficiencies. This is even true in Gekokujo, where there are guns with damage higher than the best Native crossbows.
Proficiency increases with damage dealt. Archers deal more damage per second. Outside of sieges, archers do a lot more damage, due to higher rate of fire. That's all there is to it.
(In sieges, both archers and crossbowmen can run out of ammo. In such cases, damage dealt is similar, with archers still having a slight edge, due to somewhat higher damage per shot at high power draw)
I have had archer companions with 400+ archery. I do not remember having crossbowmen with anywhere near that, except in Monty Haul mods like Perisno and Pendor, where there are ways to increase proficiencies besides dealing damage.
For any given confrontation you will get more proficiency out of engaging the opponent at greater range. This is something crossbows does better because of the higher missile speed.
Ultimately it just comes down to how you approach a fight (training really)
If you let you companions fire at short range it will end up favoring the higher rate of fire that archers can present. If you let them fire at greater distances then it is going to favor crossbows.
Because of this. I find that you can generally raise the effectiveness of crossbows to solid levels with much much lower effort than what is possible with archers. That makes them a better choice if you want a bit more diverse fighting stile.
Yes, you get a bonus for shot difficulty, which is range dependent. But bows can do much trickier shots from horseback, so horse archer companions advance like crazy.
Missile speed does affect drop rate, but A.I. characters are perfect at judging drop rate. If you think that bows cannot perform at long distance, you have not had companion archers with Power Draw 8+ and proficiency 250+. And I get those in the first game month.
True.
At short range, bow companions are devastating. This is a screenshot[i.redd.it] I posted years ago, from one of the first couple of weeks. Jeremus in this screenshot is an egghead, not a combat beast, and he is still racking kills, experience and proficiency very, very quickly. He could not have ever gotten this kind of gain with a crossbow.
And how do you do this?
If you are facing a large enemy waband with a large party, you will either have to order your non-companions to hold fire, or you will suffer more return fire than your companions can output. And after the first few kills, the enemy will charge. And good luck getting a lot of crossbow kills in the time it takes the enemy to get in your face... while archers are raking kills.
If you are facing a large enemy warband with a small party, the enemy will charge at once.
If you are facing a small enemy warband, you will get few kills per companion.
So the only way to train your companions to use their crossbows at long distance is in sieges. You will not be getting into the 400+ proficiencies from sieges, unless you siege a lot more necessary for victory. I have actually done it, with home rules that explicitly forbid me from taking land. That's the only save (of dozen) in which I have companions with 450+ in firearms (which are mechanically like crossbows)
No. Not one of the points above stands. I have had Alayan (and other companions) with 250+ archery in one game month. I have posted such screenshot and videos years ago. Do you have any evidence of those quickly trained crossbow companions? As in 250+ proficiency in the first game month, even on Bunduk, who already starts with 105+ proficiency on day One?
So you say. Do you have any evidence except for theory crafting? I've tried to train crossbow snipers deliberately, in Native, Pendor, Perisno, etc. and firearm snipers in Gekokujo, With Fire and Sword, Suvarnabhumi Mahayuth , etc. In all but one case, they have lagged far behind archer companions.
The sole exception was Gekokujo, with 100+ damage teppo, and where I literally sieged every fief 2-3 times, killed 600+ defenders with 15 companions, and withdrew when there were a dozen defenders left, to do it again.
In some cases, I was shooting from super extreme range. Like this.[i.imgur.com]
And by the way, even in that save, with all that effort, the only musketeer to come close to the best archers was the looter girl, who had 10 Weapon Mastery (none of the archers did)
Oh, and note that the only reason the long range training is possible is that the archers broke the defender's sally. See the dead bodies in from of the gatehouse? Crossbows/muskets could not have stopped the charge. Even to train great crossbowmen, you need great archers.
That's the kind of training that produces great crossbowmen, and it is much, much harder to pull off than the trivial example of training archers earlier - it is simply much easier to provide ideal conditions for archery training.
I have tried to exploit some mods that allow you to carry on after death to speed level a companion through the usual horse archer procedure. But this suggestion.. just no!
The amount of XP available in any fight is fixed. It is completely irrelevant whether you take all archers or all crossbows.The amount of proficiency you can gain is not. And no.. there is a clear and obvious difference in the perfornance at higher range.
They do not automatically and blindly charge and overrun your companions. Not in native nor in POP atleast. (I would not be able to count the number of times I have been running around a map with 100+ enemies on my tail in either; because the true role of leader in this age was clearly to be bait)
Fundamentally, this is the reason why I have never really been able bring my self to go back to POP because I always end up turning the early game into a cheese fest..
No one disputes that a dedicated archer build will ultimately outperform a crossbow.
Have you ever trained a crossbowman to high proficiencies in any reasonable amount of time?
Because you keep talking and talking, and it is all theoretical. I have actually gone to the trouble of leveling companions in many, many ways. The fastest way to level them is to set up a group of shieldless enemies to rush them in a straight line, and in that situation, bows get three times the kills, compared to crossbows.
I gave you examples of an Intelligence specc'd Jeremus having archery in the 180+ in the first game month, by using a quick firing bow. And I bet you'd have a hard time seting up a training regimen to get even Bunduk to 180+ in a game month, using a crossbow.
=================
Dude, I even have it on video, in Native.
You have to set things up precisely, but I can do it. The trick is to have low armor horsemen, like steppe/desert bandits chasing your companions, after you have sent them circling the map counterclockwise. The enemies are moving quickly, the companions are moving quickly, and enough shots are fired for a few quick kills. Those shots get easily difficulty 10.
I have done the exact same thing in Viking Conquest, with javelin companions from horseback. They fire, inaccurately, in a crowd, and the hits are random, but the game awards difficulty 10-14 ratings, and the proficiency increases that go with it.
And I have done it with crossbows in Prophecy of Pendor, and it still was not enough to get the crossbowmen on level with the archers.
You see, I have actually done all of those things, because I actually wanted to know. You are just theorizing.
==================
In my last saved game, I have Alayan with archery 315 on day 43. Do you have a save that beats that with a crossbow? You keep saying how they are easier to train, so why don't you show us how you do it?
Note that the Alayan I referenced above has been posted online an year ago, and is not something I have concocted for this discussion.
If you want to count the blatantly obvious cheat speed level trick then I have done so in a single fight.
As long as you kite, which you clearly also do, it makes zero difference which weapon you use. But crossbows do more damage per hit (at low level) and are more accurate at range so they are obviously easier to skill up quicker. It is really not rocket science...
And no. I am not theorizing. I obviously use crossbows more often because I perfer my compainions levelled as knights
You've done it with a player character, or a companion controlled by you? Then it's irrelevant.
The only relevant information is if you have trained a companion with a crossbow to high proficiency, without cheats, without taking control, in a short period.
If you have done so, show us how. Above, I posted screenshots of Jeremus getting three archery kills in about as many seconds. I have posted videos of Alayan getting to 315 archery in about 40 game days. I have posted screenshots of extreme long range training for firearms.
And all of my experience shows that crossbows cannot be leveled anywhere as quickly as bows.
You have nothing but words.
Not even numbers. You keep saying "crossbows do more damage per shot, so they level faster"
Which is irrelevant, because proficiency experience is earned through damage, and through shot difficulty. Bows output way higher damage per second, and difficult shots are nice, but hard to setup in high volume. I know, I have done it, and I have posted screenshots to prove I've done it.
I say that bows level faster, because it is much easier to setup fish-in-a-barrel shootfests.
I have hours of videos of my archer companions shooting up infantry rushing them, and I have a few episodes of the same companions shooting up steppe bandits (maybe desert ones too) who are chasing them. In that series, by the end of the first month, some of my archers are already doing more damage per shot with their bows than they would do with siege crossbows.
And from then on, bows are just as damaging per shot, but shoot a few times faster. Game over.
Then post numbers and screenshots. The crossbow proficiency of your companions, with the game day on which it is recorded.
And then we will compare it to some of my companions, who have 450+ archery proficiency on day 150, and laugh at yours.
And if you show 400 crossbows on day 150, I will ask you to post screenshots showing how it has been obtained. Because I actually know what it takes to get those numbers. It takes fighting 15 vs 600, and building piles of corpses like this one[i.imgur.com]. Screenshot from a sally, by the way.
If you cannot post screenshots with piles like this, done by companions with crossbows, you are just theorizing.
Crossbow is easy to train. A few decent battles and you are done and can spend the rest of time the time doing something that is actually fun instead off cheesing the system.
And no. That is not through the above obvious exploit. Just through the normal blatant cheese that is ranged combat in warband...
Why are we actually making a pissing contest on who is the greatest at cheesing combat in Warband again???
Ohh, and for the record. I only do the run forth and back at the very earliest level of proficiency. I upgrade to the slightly less stupid "run them all into a big blop and ride circles around them" as soon as as I can...
I have had 480 crossbow companions, but that was on day 540.
I have had archery 460 Alayan on day 187.
See the difference?
In English, a few is understood to mean 3 to 6.
The mind boggle at how you get proficiency to decent levels, for multiple companions in a few battles.
I'm done with your bullsнiт. It took my Alayan 190 battles, and about four hundred kills to get to proficiency 200, which is barely a decent proficiency. A few battle against 100 enemies each will give you less than 100 kills per companion.
And at what level would you need it to be, for that to happen?
Few is obviously hyberbole...
And hell it doesnt take 100 battles to get Alayen to 200. Extreme hyberbole...
I know you are old so memory might be an issue (not that I am not). So let me remind you.
Your typical way of fighting, according to you, is doing most of the killing yourself.
Mine is letting my companions do most of the killing (all of it when I train them in ranged)
It takes a whole lot more kills to get to 189 in onehand...
The crossbow starts with better damage per shot, and better accuracy without investment.
The bow needs Power Draw to be of any use, but once you invest 5 points if you are starting from zero, or two-three points if you already have some, it becomes strictly better.
By the way, to use the most powerful crossbow, you need Strength 14, or at least 10 for the basic siege crossbow. So it is not as if you could just stick it on an egghead with Strength 6 like Ymira. A melee companion will have the Strength for a crossbow, but he will also be better served by a bow, as he will earn a lot more experience that way.
For the bow to be strictly better than the crossbow? If you are good at setting up killing zones, Alayan is already unarguably better with a bow by level 6.
But if you want to push the point, even wimpy Ymira at level 2 with Power Draw 2 and a masterwork hunting bow will be earning experience faster than she would with a crossbow.