1v1 combat

[iamihop]

I love this game (360 hours on Steam), but I find the combat frustrating. I'm trying to improve my ability to deal with bandit ambushes by training at the training camp. I just pounded my way to the expert level 1v1 matchups (I can manage basic blocks and attacks, which is all that takes), but I hate the way the AI sometimes become glued to me and puts out a constant barrage of attacks. It's impossible to get distance, even with kicks, and they're faster than my character even with slower weapons, so if I ever stop blocking and try to land a hit, I get hit instead. I've tried chambering, but it almost never seems to work. Blocking doesn't seem to stun or slow them down at all.

I need suggestions. How can I create space in 1v1 combat against an AI character that is glued to me? How can I improve my chambering success? Can all weapons chamber all opponent weapons? How can I beat the opponent to the punch after blocking an attack? Do I just need to grind and improve my level, agility, and weapon skills? Remember, we're using the same weapons, so weapon speed is irrelevant for the training camp.

[White Knight]

The trouble is, the game is designed to have a hard start. Your character is weak and clumsy compared to just about anyone. As you improve your skills, attributes and equipment, gather companions and train them, etc. you'll find it much more satisfying.

For the time being, you get to practice your skills at running away and avoiding trouble.

Get some friends, start collecting companions, and pick fights with "Looters" and even some bandits, if you can handle it.

The training grounds are an excellent way to train. Melee fights in the cities (see the tournament master during daylight hours) might help a bit too?

This is how the game works. Those guys you are facing off against are trained soldiers - they are faster than you, they are tougher than you, etc.

Your glory must be earned the hard way (unless you cheat).

[ÄmJii]

One thing I only recently discovered (after a few Native + one Gekokujo playthrough) is that Athletics is a real game-changer in combat: More mobility means easier strafe dodging & jumping in and out of close quater. This becomes especially important when you get surrounded by enemies and need to backpedal while poking enemies with 2hander.

[Vincero]

Originally posted by iamihop:

I love this game (360 hours on Steam), but I find the combat frustrating. I'm trying to improve my ability to deal with bandit ambushes by training at the training camp. I just pounded my way to the expert level 1v1 matchups (I can manage basic blocks and attacks, which is all that takes), but I hate the way the AI sometimes become glued to me and puts out a constant barrage of attacks. It's impossible to get distance, even with kicks, and they're faster than my character even with slower weapons, so if I ever stop blocking and try to land a hit, I get hit instead. I've tried chambering, but it almost never seems to work. Blocking doesn't seem to stun or slow them down at all.

I need suggestions. How can I create space in 1v1 combat against an AI character that is glued to me? How can I improve my chambering success? Can all weapons chamber all opponent weapons? How can I beat the opponent to the punch after blocking an attack? Do I just need to grind and improve my level, agility, and weapon skills? Remember, we're using the same weapons, so weapon speed is irrelevant for the training camp.

Start thinking about weapon designs.. A greataxe might be good against a shielded opponent but greatsword would be well suited in terms of agility and speed against a heavy two handed war axe.. I prefer to combine a shield, complimented by a lance or spear to maintain distance but equip a sword in hand during close hand to hand combat... Focus on proficiencies for now :)

[iamihop]

Thanks for the responses! I've had moderately high lvl characters before, but in my opinion a properly designed game should allow an expert player to accomplish anything, with difficult tasks become easier as the character levels. I'm not an expert, but what I'm hearing is that some things simply aren't possible at low levels, no matter how much I practice. I don't really have problems in field combat; it's small-scale, random-weapon or staff combat that I struggle with. I'll put a few points into athletics, which I tend to overlook.

[Tuidjy]

I can beat the training fields with a level 1 character without losing a fight, and usually without getting hit. As for the arena, I usually grab two levels before I go out of my first city. On average, three of the fights required to do so are wins. If I spawn with a sword and shield and don't win, I feel I've screwed up.

White Knight is right that low proficiency, low athletics, and a slow weapon can make it hard to prevail in some fights.

But if you are an expert, you can go all out, and squeeze every little bit of efficiency out of your character (walking in the blow, turning in the blow, attacking with the edge of the detection arc, canceling every move, even a blow that has landed, using your shield at the last second, and especially chamber blocking, which is actually easier with low proficiency and slow weapons)

When you do that, you will annihilate the champion fighters in the training field. But it takes practice, and knowledge. For example, counter intuitively, you CANNOT afford to block a two handed sword with a light weapon. With a low proficiency, and the weapon weight penalty, your block stun will be higher than theirs, despite the significant advantage the defender enjoys. And this is just one example.

Why do some people know about this?

Because there are mods which force you to use these tricks, by throwing level 60, proficiency 600 enemies at you (Perisno, Pendor) by giving enemy lords special duel A.I. (The Last Days) or by removing all built-in inefficiencies from the combat A.I. (Brainy Bots) When you play those mods, you get much worse match-ups than Native's merchant player vs Nord huscarl.

If you are used to fighting Faramir in The Last Days with a humble goblin character, or Ithilrandir in Pendor... you can beat anyone in Native with a Str6, Agi6 character.

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But yes, your point that some things are impossible does stand. If a level 1 snaga pulls a 60cm cleaver on Lord Elrond, he will die, even if I'm playing him. I mean, one wears mithril, holds a sword with a three page long Wiki entry, and has been training for 6000 years. The other has a rusty hunk of metal, and stands crotch high.

I can't really find fault with that design decision, though.

[psychotron666]

A summary of what tuidjy said, in my own blunt words :

Git gud

[iamihop]

Okay, see that's different from what I was being told. I've been working on chambering. I find it far more difficult to chamber with the staff than either sword, which is unfortunate, because that's what I have most of the time. The staff seems really sluggish, despite my character having higher polearm than either sword skill. By the time I can tell what attack is coming my way, it's too late. I think I just need to practice identifying the attack direction faster. I wish there was a no-damage mode where you can just spar indefinitely. Is there?

Edit: this sort of stuff is so much easier in real life than in this game. I fenced for a while, and it came so much more naturally than this lol

[White Knight]

One of the things that first impressed me about this game is the fact that it specifically requires the player to learn and develop skills, just like the character.

With respect to the wooden stick, there are a few situations where you'll find yourself hopelessly trying to swing a broomstick against multiple opponents. Training fields, training peasants, tournament fights, prison escapes, sneaking into cities, etc. are all examples of situations where the player might be alone with just a stick. I was frustrated by the same thing.

Agility and athletics will help with weapon and movement speed. Strength and power swing will increase the damage. Putting skill points into polearms (spears) is important too.

I got the special weapon "Ray", and taught myself to use it well. Since many soldiers have weapon skills around 250, you won't begin to stand out until you've surpassed that point...by a lot ideally. Tuidgy talks about skills in the 500+ range but the best I've seen yet would be the high 400's. The higher you can get those skills, the more fluid and effective your attacks will be. Spears and broomsticks are both polearms and those skills can be improved.

Beyond that, your equipment is also a factor. Heavy armour slows you down, and depending upon the version of the game you are playing, it can tire you out as well.

If you prioritize these things, you'll never stress out when you spawn onto a map with just a stick in your hand. Exactly the same things apply to swords, bows/crossbows, etc. Much like real life, practice is the key.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by White Knight:

Tuidgy talks about skills in the 500+ range but the best I've seen yet would be the high 400's. The higher you can get those skills, the more fluid and effective your attacks will be.

Here[vignette.wikia.nocookie.net] are the stats of a troop from Perisno. Note that the level has been set to 80, probably because that constable rides a dread wolf, which is a nightmare[image.ibb.co]. Fighting a wolf constable is hard, but killing a level 80 troop provides a lot of experience. Such experience ends up producing characters like this[i.imgur.com].

But those examples are from a pretty crazy mod. Gekokujo is a much easier, much more sane mod. It is no harder than Native, maybe easier. But when you play the way I do, by turning your character into a combat beast, you get characters like this[i.imgur.com].

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Ha, I actually linked a Native character. I did not even realize I had a screenshot of one. It's actually more useful. Yeah, that is a legit, standard combat beast from an unmodded Native game.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by iamihop:

By the time I can tell what attack is coming my way, it's too late. I think I just need to practice identifying the attack direction faster.

Yes. Absolutely. Crucially.

The ability to recognize and react to the attack is probably in the top three skills of a veteran player. It includes immediately noticing the attack being canceled and changed - irrelevant against the A.I. but paramount against a player.

You really notice when you boot up a new mod, spend some time to assimilate the new animations... but are still much less effective, because while you consciously recognize them, your subconscious has not caught up yet.

[White Knight]

So I finally got around to checking out your links Tuidgy, thanks.

For future reference, just in case it matters, when I mention your amazing claims, that isn't a challenge.

Here is my current character in Viking Conquest: Ridire Ban

So if I can get to high 400's, without making any claims of being a stupendous player, then it isn't hard to imagine that a better player who maximizes advantages, etc. could pull off much higher skill levels. I keep referencing you because I have yet to see a better example.

[HacaPotato]

Originally posted by iamihop:

Thanks for the responses! I've had moderately high lvl characters before, but in my opinion a properly designed game should allow an expert player to accomplish anything, with difficult tasks become easier as the character levels. I'm not an expert, but what I'm hearing is that some things simply aren't possible at low levels, no matter how much I practice. I don't really have problems in field combat; it's small-scale, random-weapon or staff combat that I struggle with. I'll put a few points into athletics, which I tend to overlook.

You can do anything at low levels if you try hard enough. I beat the starting bandit to death with my bare hands every playthrough because I find it entertaining.

[RandomDude]

If you can land kicks, do kick then slash. If you time it right, it's a free hit.

Bots usually fall for feints too, so hold lmb, release it and quickly press rmb, then swig again with lmb. If the bot did anything other than swing at you instead of trying to block the first swing, you Will get a free hit.

I haven't visited the training fields for a long time - I prefer the arenas, although it's a good way to get to level 2 if you can win.