System Shock (Remake) changes too much.

[Xkilljoy98]

The System Shock Remake is not System Shock 1, it has so many differences that it isn't really the same game at this point but rather a sort of hybrid of a sequel, remake, and reimagining.

it is closer to SS2 than SS1

I wanted to make a list to help inform people of the changes so that more are aware

-Original Music is missing, replaced with unfitting ambiance

-Many enemies, items, weapons, etc are missing or redesigned and do not resemble their original versions

-cyberspace is completely different in look, music, and layout

-lighting is much darker than the original

And that is just what we know so far, there may be more differences we don't know about

Now some won't mind the changes and that is fine but for many of us that love the original and don't want anything major changed (outside of general graphic updates), these things are important aspects and vital to the identity and spirit of the original to change them rips out a part of the games' soul.

They could at least brand it as a reimagining, since it sure isn't "faithful" (not to my def anyway) and not 1:1.

I am not here to argue with anyone or tell you how to feel, I am expressing the issues that many fans have with it so that anyone that doesn't already know is informed.

Also it has been 7 years and they constantly change the release date, so there is that as well.

I have followed this game for all 7 years and counting, and even though the game is not out we know enough to have an idea.

Yes IK EE exists, but some would like a 1:1 remake that is the original but in full HD 3D.

Edit: 1:1 Remakes exists: https://youtu.be/3m-6JDh5ybg

Also look at the Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, Destroy all Humans, Dead Space, Tony Hawk, etc Remakes, they are 1:1 and they are fantastic.

If you want to know my thoughts more in depth, go watch the podcasts I did with some friends a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsUzRsxvwpYrLcdJ3wiXJDaJ-wkTXH9yA

[Butthead]

引用自 rane：

You know, that really grinds my gears.
System Shock 1 was wild sparqing the mutants to death, freeform cyberspace, solving logic puzzles, perforating robots with the flechette, gathering the items required to proceed, BZZZTing things with the laser rapier, multi-layered exploration. Only two of the game's 10 levels were horror adjacent and the second barely counts anyway due to how much firepower you were packing at that point.
And yet, because System Shock 2 went full horror, SS1 seems to be forcibly molded to follow suit, even though that was far from the thing that got everyone so hooked on it originally.
We don't need System Shock 2 AND System Shock 2 The Before. I was hoping the remake would be more faithful on the themes touched, but by now I'm far too jaded on how nightdive conducts their business and how much rep the nightdive internet defense force gives.

i feel like ss2 was more like half life with rpg mechanics

[rane]

well half-life did have a bit of a horror bend itself but SS2 had the midwives (especially with the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ conversion audiolog conveniently placed), screaming hybrid spawns, the many sections, ghosts, and so on

[Xkilljoy98]

引用自 rane：

You know, that really grinds my gears.
System Shock 1 was wild sparqing the mutants to death, freeform cyberspace, solving logic puzzles, perforating robots with the flechette, gathering the items required to proceed, BZZZTing things with the laser rapier, multi-layered exploration. Only two of the game's 10 levels were horror adjacent and the second barely counts anyway due to how much firepower you were packing at that point.
And yet, because System Shock 2 went full horror, SS1 seems to be forcibly molded to follow suit, even though that was far from the thing that got everyone so hooked on it originally.
We don't need System Shock 2 AND System Shock 2 The Before. I was hoping the remake would be more faithful on the themes touched, but by now I'm far too jaded on how nightdive conducts their business and how much rep the nightdive internet defense force gives.

100%, I fully agree with and and I feel the same way

[PhosphoR]

引用自 Xkilljoy98：

引用自 rane：

You know, that really grinds my gears.
System Shock 1 was wild sparqing the mutants to death, freeform cyberspace, solving logic puzzles, perforating robots with the flechette, gathering the items required to proceed, BZZZTing things with the laser rapier, multi-layered exploration. Only two of the game's 10 levels were horror adjacent and the second barely counts anyway due to how much firepower you were packing at that point.
And yet, because System Shock 2 went full horror, SS1 seems to be forcibly molded to follow suit, even though that was far from the thing that got everyone so hooked on it originally.
We don't need System Shock 2 AND System Shock 2 The Before. I was hoping the remake would be more faithful on the themes touched, but by now I'm far too jaded on how nightdive conducts their business and how much rep the nightdive internet defense force gives.

100%, I fully agree with and and I feel the same way

I am in the SS1>SS2 camp. I think that the remake of SS1 is so far pretty good. The final release will be way better than SS2.

[Sparhawk122]

The whole concept of a 'remake' is to change stuff. Sounds like OP wanted a remaster.

[phillippi2]

Remaster = same game with a fresh coat of paint.
Remake = making the same game, again, making changes only where necessary.
Reimagine = making changes to the base game.

A good example of a remaster is System Shock: Enhanced Edition.
A good example of a remake is the recent Quake made by NightDive.
A few good examples of reimaginings are Doom (2016) and Black Mesa.

[Shallex]

引用自 phillippi2：

Remaster = same game with a fresh coat of paint.
Remake = making the same game, again, making changes only where necessary.
Reimagine = making changes to the base game.

A good example of a remaster is System Shock: Enhanced Edition.
A good example of a remake is the recent Quake made by NightDive.
A few good examples of reimaginings are Doom (2016) and Black Mesa.

if quake counts as a remake then wouldn't system shock enhanced edition arguably be one as well since they introduced a new control scheme paradigm, meanwhile quake's gameplay is identical to its original version as far as i know

[phillippi2]

引用自 Shallex：

if quake counts as a remake then wouldn't system shock enhanced edition arguably be one as well since they introduced a new control scheme paradigm, meanwhile quake's gameplay is identical to its original version as far as i know

Quake was done on a new enigne; Unity, I think. Whereas, System Shock: Enhanced Edition still uses the original engine, If you want to get an idea for how KEX uses the original engine, look at the source code for Strife: Veteran Edition.

[Berathraben]

Quake was also done in KEX. Using it as a interpretive layer for the original engines code and allowing it to utilise newer libraries, etc.

It is a remaster as far as I am aware.

You might be thinking of the original Doom ports to Unity released not so long ago.
The same thing is being done there as the Quake port to KEX.

Doom in Unity is still utilising the original Doom engine and code but acting as a layer allowing for newer graphical support, console ports, co op and mp on newer infrastructures, etc.

Even though those versions of Doom are technically using a different engine. Unity in those cases is not actually functioning as what people typically refer to as an engine.

It is acting more as a host for the original engine and giving it functions that it would not otherwise be able to support. It is also a remaster. Neither Quake nor the Doom games run through Unity were remade from the ground up for those new releases.

KEX it self is also capable of being a full on engine of it's own just like Unity. Or more accurately, it has the capability to be one if the tools are written for it to function that way. But so far it has only been utilised as an interpreter or layer hosting other games engines.

At least that is how I describe it and the functions it delivers.

[Xkilljoy98]

引用自 phillippi2：

Remaster = same game with a fresh coat of paint.
Remake = making the same game, again, making changes only where necessary.
Reimagine = making changes to the base game.

A good example of a remaster is System Shock: Enhanced Edition.
A good example of a remake is the recent Quake made by NightDive.
A few good examples of reimaginings are Doom (2016) and Black Mesa.

I suppose yeah, I classify them somewhat similarly

Remaster: A port with a fresh coat of paint, using the same code and usually same assets

Remake: A game build from the ground ground up with all new code, assets, etc

Reimagining: A remake but one that changes a lot of things

[Dark Redshift]

引用自 JDR13：

引用自 ZylonBane：

Are you blind? The remake feels more horror because EVERYTHING IS DARK NOW.

The original game's engine is perfectly capable of well-lit areas, pitch-black areas, and everything in between. It used darkness specifically where Irrational thought it would have the best effect.

The developers of the remake, on the other hand, seem to have taken the simpleminded view that "If some darkness is good, more darkness is better!"

You're joking, right? It takes more than darkness to make something horror.

SS1 already had horror elements like the bodies scattered about and enemies popping out when you weren't expecting them. Not to mention blood and gore all over the place.

The demo was definitely too dark. That I would agree with. Hopefully that's adjusted before the game is released, but that aspect by itself does not make it more horror.

Don't forget the groves in the original were brightly lit and they were still scary: it was the atmosphere, tense music, mutants hiding around every corner and the fact beta grove was so infested with SHODAN's virus that dying there would always result in game over, even if you had a hazmat suit to resist the infection.

I was just watching a first time player stream the Enhanced Edition this afternoon and she found it very scary even though I personally mostly don't except maintenance and the groves. She's only just made it to level 3 too. (not actually gone there)

[ZylonBane]

引用自 phillippi2：

A good example of a remaster is System Shock: Enhanced Edition.
A good example of a remake is the recent Quake made by NightDive.

Both of these statements are wrong.

SSEE isn't a remaster. Remasters upgrade the asset resolution. That's what remastering means. SSEE uses the same assets as original SS, just piped through a more modern renderer. SSEE would traditionally be considered a source port.

Quake EE is not a remake. It's also not a remaster. A remake is when you recreate a game from scratch. Quake EE has not been reprogrammed. It's the same game code, but with a new renderer on top, just like SSEE. Again, this would be called a source port.

[Chops]

Firstly lets remember we are talking about a game that was make in 1994.
that's 29 years ago.
Look at the original in the context of its hardware limitations.
Doom was a new game as was Descent, releasing on CD was also newish.
So making a game that combined FPS action with RPG element and a Descent side game its a lot of technical challenges for a 66 Mhz PC with maybe a 1-2Mb 2D display card and 32-64 Mb of RAM.
This was the first game with variable gravity.

I'm sure many thing would be different if the game was made anew today.

I played the original in 2002 on a Pentium 133 So I had something like the original hardware the game was intended for.

I also just played the remake Med-sci demo level.
my thoughts, its a pretty faithful reproduction of the original with obviously greatly enhanced graphics.

Cyberspace was different, but in the original game the developers wanted cyber space to be different to what was produced. Descent was a new game (not sure if it was released by then) and not many people were adept with navigating 3D space in zero G
I personally think the way Cyberspace has been remade is amazing. I love the 'acid-trip' cut-scene on entry, and I think it should be made even more pronounced like the arms morphing into the hardware then tunnelling in with the nod to 2001. The clean lines and tutti fruity graphics greatly contrast with the dark and grimy real world

in the original it was just jump cut to a black world with wire-frames and crude geometric objects. In the original it wasn't even clear how that V shaped thing in the wall actually worked. But now its very clear how you interact with it. This creates the deep immersion you want from a game like this. In the original, cyberspace was bit boring to be honest.

I love what they have done with all the mods and upgrades, they were too abstract in the original, now they are very tangible. You can see them getting plugged in or at the very least the plated pins where they will plug in.

The interface is less clumsy than the original which is good, and full mouse look is great. As long as the story and important items and quests are not changed I think this game will be great.

You really cant compare the 16 bit world with the 32/64 bit world when it come to gaming. A grainy 2D 16 bit sprite is not as immersive as 3D one rendered in 1080p or 4K.

I think parts of this game are gorgeous in delivery and probably what the developers would have wanted if the technology was there in 1994.

I just suggest the developers leave the game open to modding. I would love to see what people come up with for custom cyberspace entry cut-scenes.

For the people who say "its not the original" there is always enhanced edition

[Xkilljoy98]

引用自 Dark Redshift：

引用自 JDR13：

You're joking, right? It takes more than darkness to make something horror.

SS1 already had horror elements like the bodies scattered about and enemies popping out when you weren't expecting them. Not to mention blood and gore all over the place.

The demo was definitely too dark. That I would agree with. Hopefully that's adjusted before the game is released, but that aspect by itself does not make it more horror.

Don't forget the groves in the original were brightly lit and they were still scary: it was the atmosphere, tense music, mutants hiding around every corner and the fact beta grove was so infested with SHODAN's virus that dying there would always result in game over, even if you had a hazmat suit to resist the infection.

I was just watching a first time player stream the Enhanced Edition this afternoon and she found it very scary even though I personally mostly don't except maintenance and the groves. She's only just made it to level 3 too. (not actually gone there)

I didn't really find the groves scary myself as the grove music and enemies I wasn't scared by, tho I agree they were brightly lit tho in terms of horror IDK if I would call it any more horror than any other part of the game

[Xkilljoy98]

引用自 Chops：

Firstly lets remember we are talking about a game that was make in 1994.
that's 29 years ago.
Look at the original in the context of its hardware limitations.
Doom was a new game as was Descent, releasing on CD was also newish.
So making a game that combined FPS action with RPG element and a Descent side game its a lot of technical challenges for a 66 Mhz PC with maybe a 1-2Mb 2D display card and 32-64 Mb of RAM.
This was the first game with variable gravity.

I'm sure many thing would be different if the game was made anew today.

I played the original in 2002 on a Pentium 133 So I had something like the original hardware the game was intended for.

I also just played the remake Med-sci demo level.
my thoughts, its a pretty faithful reproduction of the original with obviously greatly enhanced graphics.

Cyberspace was different, but in the original game the developers wanted cyber space to be different to what was produced. Descent was a new game (not sure if it was released by then) and not many people were adept with navigating 3D space in zero G
I personally think the way Cyberspace has been remade is amazing. I love the 'acid-trip' cut-scene on entry, and I think it should be made even more pronounced like the arms morphing into the hardware then tunnelling in with the nod to 2001. The clean lines and tutti fruity graphics greatly contrast with the dark and grimy real world

in the original it was just jump cut to a black world with wire-frames and crude geometric objects. In the original it wasn't even clear how that V shaped thing in the wall actually worked. But now its very clear how you interact with it. This creates the deep immersion you want from a game like this. In the original, cyberspace was bit boring to be honest.

I love what they have done with all the mods and upgrades, they were too abstract in the original, now they are very tangible. You can see them getting plugged in or at the very least the plated pins where they will plug in.

The interface is less clumsy than the original which is good, and full mouse look is great. As long as the story and important items and quests are not changed I think this game will be great.

You really cant compare the 16 bit world with the 32/64 bit world when it come to gaming. A grainy 2D 16 bit sprite is not as immersive as 3D one rendered in 1080p or 4K.

I think parts of this game are gorgeous in delivery and probably what the developers would have wanted if the technology was there in 1994.

I just suggest the developers leave the game open to modding. I would love to see what people come up with for custom cyberspace entry cut-scenes.

For the people who say "its not the original" there is always enhanced edition

Yeah IK it was made in 94 and it had some limitations but also they still had enough to make the game they wanted

The Med Demo is faithful in some area but not all as the music is different, lighting is darker in many areas, etc

I am sure the game might be different if made today, how much different, IDK but IDK if it would have been the remake NDS is making

I have mixed thought son cyberspace, I loved it in the original and the remake's is missing the music as well as the blackness, blinking lights, wireframe, and transparent walls. You don't feel like you are floating in space like in the original, it feels more physical I guess

Not bad for a sequel, but not for a remake

I thought the controls and layout for the original was straightforward myself, I didn't have any issues with it and like I said the blackness, geometry, and wireframe was something I loved along with the blinking lights

What do you mean, gameplay wise in the original upgrades made sense and the remake seems to have the same ones aside from maybe 1 or 2

Tho I do agree that seeing them plugged in is neat

Interface is fine, I didn't mind the original but for the remake isn't too bad UI wise

Yes you can compare 2D/2.5D and 3D, you can easily tell what things are supposed to be in the original and via the art the game has

Plus the remake is staying true to somethings but changing others

I thought SS1 was very immersive, immersion isn't just graphic quality

Who knows what the original devs would have done, some aren't involved, plus I am sure the music would have been like the original

I hope the game is moddable, that way we can make it more like the original

At least with the music and items, weapons, and enemies

Yeah there is the EE, but what if I want 1:1 and in full HD 3D?

It just doesn't feel like it is fully made for fans of the original