RIP Alec Holowka

[Echo]

Official Reddit Post

Update: Alec's Official Obituary[passages.winnipegfreepress.com]

Alec may not have been the greatest person from what I read, but his work on NITW's soundtrack and programming has left a profound impact on many people.
His death may be a bit of an antithesis to NITW's message of healing and striving to be a better person despite making mistakes, but that's okay.

Please be safe in these dark times, everyone.

[toth_psyche]

After this tragedy, I personally–in an odd way–don't feel like playing any video games anymore, let alone buying NiTW (although I'm sure it's good) from people who betrayed Alec for no justifiable reason. Scott's account might seem valid at first, but at some point it just becomes ridiculous. And yes, I have read, watched and heard pretty much everything I could find from both sides. To think that such a talented, complex, intelligent person, even if troubled and difficult, could be completely ruined just in a few days, with everything he already had and could have yet achieved, with nobody being able to prevent it, although everyone close to him knew exactly where it was leading. Memory eternal to the newly reposed Alexander.

[roymaster45]

Originally posted by toth_psyche:

from people who betrayed Alec for no justifiable reason. Scott's account might seem valid at first, but at some point it just becomes ridiculous.

I don't remember the full details of Scott's account, partially because I skimmed through certain sections. I'll agree that some of his examples of "abuse" or "manipulation" are stretching those definitions quite a bit (apart from Alec telling him and others that he might commit suicide if they left him or ♥♥♥♥, because that's manipulation 101). But when at least 6-7 people either accused Alec of abusing them or corroborated Quinn's accusations (including one of the "three friends" they mention near the beginning of their original tweet), and several of those are from before Scott/Bethany made the decision to cut ties... I don't know, I think it's understandable.

It seems like it would be a hard decision regardless of what they ended up doing. If they had decided to keep him around, there probably would have been plenty of people saying that they were enabling abuse and sexual assault or some ♥♥♥♥, and refusing to buy the game as a result. Not as many as there are now, obviously, but it feels like they were caught between a rock and a hard place.

In any case, I respect your opinion, and your decision/feeling not play any games any more.

[toth_psyche]

Originally posted by roymaster45:

I'll agree that some of his examples of "abuse" or "manipulation" are stretching those definitions quite a bit (apart from Alec telling him and others that he might commit suicide if they left him or ♥♥♥♥, because that's manipulation 101).

Exactly. As a non-native speaker, I’m not sure whether manipulation falls into the category of ‘abuse’, and besides, I’m not familiar with the Canadian law, but in my country, continued suicide threats would be sufficient cause to call a mental health ambulance (and the police), especially if they seemed real. Like him swinging a knife, or whatever made everyone feel ‘unsafe’ in his presence.

Originally posted by roymaster45:

But when at least 6-7 people either accused Alec of abusing them or corroborated Quinn's accusations (including one of the "three friends" they mention near the beginning of their original tweet), and several of those are from before Scott/Bethany made the decision to cut ties... I don't know, I think it's understandable.

None of them corroborated the sexual assault part, i. e. what was most horrible about her allegations. And even she herself didn’t speak of actual rape.

Originally posted by roymaster45:

If they had decided to keep him around, there probably would have been plenty of people saying that they were enabling abuse and sexual assault or some ♥♥♥♥, and refusing to buy the game as a result.

They could at least have waited and calmed down a bit before making a statement. No one was accusing them of such a thing, not even remotely.

Originally posted by roymaster45:

In any case, I respect your opinion, and your decision/feeling not play any games any more.

Thank you. I probably will again at some point in the future. Right now it feels somehow meaningless and vain.

[roymaster45]

Originally posted by toth_psyche:

Exactly. As a non-native speaker, I’m not sure whether manipulation falls into the category of ‘abuse’, and besides, I’m not familiar with the Canadian law, but in my country, continued suicide threats would be sufficient cause to call a mental health ambulance (and the police), especially if they seemed real. Like him swinging a knife, or whatever made everyone feel ‘unsafe’ in his presence.

None of them corroborated the sexual assault part, i. e. what was most horrible about her allegations. And even she herself didn’t speak of actual rape.

They could at least have waited and calmed down a bit before making a statement. No one was accusing them of such a thing, not even remotely.

All good points. I do want to make two quick rebuttals, or at least point some things out:

1) Yes, Quinn doesn't speak of actual rape. (And just as a gentle FYI, they actually use "they/them" pronouns.) However, they do mention Alec sticking his finger inside of them and forcefully walking them around the house/apartment, even after they said it hurt and asked him to stop. I'm not familiar with the legal distinction between sexual assault and rape in Canada. I know that in some states in the US, it's only considered rape if there's actual d**k penetration involved. But from a moral and general societal viewpoint, I think many people would consider what he did to be almost as bad as full-on rape.

EDIT: OK, turns out that r**e isn't even a criminal offense in Canada anymore. Instead, there are three different "levels" of sexual assault, each with varying degrees of severity and punishability. And quite frankly, ♥♥♥♥ that crap.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-canadas-sex-assault-laws-violate-rape-victims/article14705289/

https://www.lakinafolabilaw.com/what-is-the-difference-between-sexual-assault-and-rape/

--------

2) If I remember correctly, Quinn's original tweet accusing Alec was posted late on a Monday night. Scott and Bethany announced their decision, via the official NITW Twitter account, on Wednesday morning. That means they had a full day (and, I would like to imagine, a chance to sleep on it on Tuesday before making the final call) to think about this, talk it through with themselves, and hopefully even reach out to Alec to get his side of the story.

I have to believe they were able to do all of this with some degree of calmness and rationality. Maybe it was a tough day for them and they did make the decision based on strong emotions, or maybe not... but I'll give them credit for taking that time to do so. Rather than just cutting ties on Tuesday, the minute they heard about the accusations.

[toth_psyche]

Originally posted by roymaster45:

And just as a gentle FYI, they actually use "they/them" pronouns.

I know. I consciously refuse to support what I perceive to be linguistic dictatorship.

Originally posted by roymaster45:

However, they do mention Alec sticking his finger inside of them and forcefully walking them around the house/apartment, even after they said it hurt and asked him to stop.

I’m aware of that, too. I’m female, and I find it ridiculous. How would such a thing be possible without applying brute force or declaring an actual threat to the victim’s life? Yet Zoë hasn’t accused Alec of physical violence (like beatings or holding by force), or blackmailing, or drugging her etc. Zoë had also previously stated to have successfully fended off at least one assaulter by stabbing him in the eye or something, so she is definitely capable of fighting back. (And even just judging by the looks of them both… But OK, that’s not evidence.)

Originally posted by roymaster45:

That means they had a full day (and, I would like to imagine, a chance to sleep on it on Tuesday before making the final call) to think about this, talk it through with themselves, and hopefully even reach out to Alec to get his side of the story.

That’s too little, and it’s a shame that it seems like enough in the era of social media. According to Scott’s account, he ‘immediately reached out to Alec about the allegations. He gave me a noncommittal response, and then disappeared. I never heard from him again.’

Originally posted by roymaster45:

I have to believe they were able to do all of this with some degree of calmness and rationality.

Judging by Scott’s narrative in general and particular wordings, he appears to be more of an emotional person, rather than rational. :(

And thank you for the links, I will study them.

[Śākyamuni]

I still find it sad Alec isn't here anymore. Which is weird because I didn't know about Night in the Woods before this and I'm not usually affected by celebrity deaths, but I feel a loss here.

[toth_psyche]

Originally posted by Śākyamuni:

I'm not usually affected by celebrity deaths, but I feel a loss here.

Me neither, and so do I. I can precisely tell why I'm affected by this particular person's death: what I hate above everything in the world is when something complicated and productive, even if ambiguous (in this case, this man's creative mind, now gone forever, together with his very life), gets destroyed by powers of blindness and madness. It fills me with cold fury, but also with deep sadness.

[Roadie]

I never even met the man and I feel sorry for him. How is any of this anyone's business to begin with? No one knows what really happened. Or if the accusations were even legit. You are not automatically guilty just because someone accuses you of something. How do you know if they are even true or part of an attack on the person. Would you want someone to ignore your legit claims because of bias or accuse you of something you didn't do? He help make a game we bought it, his private life should remain just that. All this is, is gossip nonsense and bullying that ruined a man and led him to take his own life.

[Spyrelle]

Regardless of what comes out about Alec, we're all worse off 'cause of this.
Alec Holowka's talent helped make N.I.T.W an incredible experience on-top of Infinite Fall's efforts, and my condolences go out to those who were abused.

From what I'm hearing from Scott Benson's article is that Alec was mentally ill, and couldn't find the help he needed, so he'd ended up hurting others in a vicious, destructive cycle.
I don't believe he was an evil person, I believe he wasn't well and ended up hurting people as a result, but I just wish he could've truly gotten better, for his and those he abused's sake.

I wish those truly affected the best, and that they'll go on to lead happy lives.

[Bee]

I don't believe Benson's posts even a little bit. When the accusation against Holowka hit, Benson immediately jumped in to lend his credibility to them, with gusto. Not just with his personal account either, but with the accounts of the entities he shared with Holowka. The accusation turned out to be a bunch of nonsense, so this was a bad call. Within hours of Holowka's death announcement, Benson doubled-down on supporting the allegation, and writing pages upon pages upon pages of justification for both the original (lying) accuser, and of himself for having supported the accusations.

There's no way to read having done that as in any way decent, and I don't believe the self-serving justifications of a person who would behave that indecent way. It's done tremendous damage to a man who is both not here to defend himself against malicious gossip, and whom nobody said an unkind word about while he was alive.

This situation is just abhorrent. In civilized, adult society, it's simply not done. We don't do this to people, and once we begin, everyone is a potential target. It doesn't matter how virtuous a life you've led, there is someone out there with an axe to grind against you, somebody you crossed, maybe even by accident. We don't elevate these people and hand them a loudspeaker to speak malice to a coffin.

[omgitsbees]

Originally posted by Bee:

I don't believe Benson's posts even a little bit. When the accusation against Holowka hit, Benson immediately jumped in to lend his credibility to them, with gusto. Not just with his personal account either, but with the accounts of the entities he shared with Holowka. The accusation turned out to be a bunch of nonsense, so this was a bad call. Within hours of Holowka's death announcement, Benson doubled-down on supporting the allegation, and writing pages upon pages upon pages of justification for both the original (lying) accuser, and of himself for having supported the accusations.

There's no way to read having done that as in any way decent, and I don't believe the self-serving justifications of a person who would behave that indecent way. It's done tremendous damage to a man who is both not here to defend himself against malicious gossip, and whom nobody said an unkind word about while he was alive.

This situation is just abhorrent. In civilized, adult society, it's simply not done. We don't do this to people, and once we begin, everyone is a potential target. It doesn't matter how virtuous a life you've led, there is someone out there with an axe to grind against you, somebody you crossed, maybe even by accident. We don't elevate these people and hand them a loudspeaker to speak malice to a coffin.

You are seriously sheltered, my dude.

[Bee]

Originally posted by omgitsbees:

Originally posted by Bee:

I don't believe Benson's posts even a little bit. When the accusation against Holowka hit, Benson immediately jumped in to lend his credibility to them, with gusto. Not just with his personal account either, but with the accounts of the entities he shared with Holowka. The accusation turned out to be a bunch of nonsense, so this was a bad call. Within hours of Holowka's death announcement, Benson doubled-down on supporting the allegation, and writing pages upon pages upon pages of justification for both the original (lying) accuser, and of himself for having supported the accusations.

There's no way to read having done that as in any way decent, and I don't believe the self-serving justifications of a person who would behave that indecent way. It's done tremendous damage to a man who is both not here to defend himself against malicious gossip, and whom nobody said an unkind word about while he was alive.

This situation is just abhorrent. In civilized, adult society, it's simply not done. We don't do this to people, and once we begin, everyone is a potential target. It doesn't matter how virtuous a life you've led, there is someone out there with an axe to grind against you, somebody you crossed, maybe even by accident. We don't elevate these people and hand them a loudspeaker to speak malice to a coffin.

You are seriously sheltered, my dude.

Nah, it's the opposite. I've got epistemological training at the graduate level, along with course-work in logic, analytics, and behavioral psychology. Also, graduate courses in ethics for both medical research and business practices. The problem is not some kind of lack of insight on my part. I'd wager it's more that you never developed your information filters to the point where you can discern talk from fact.

[AshynnKor]

Honestly. I don't want to be a ♥♥♥♥, but too many people nower days call false accusations of rape. I for one find it difficult to believe if it's a "boy who cried wolf" thing that the media jumps on- as usual -or if it's legit. Someone, point me in the direction of solid proof because until then I struggle to believe these accusations. - blame the idiots who make these accusations out of lies

[flowtackendall]

Originally posted by Façade:

Honestly. I don't want to be a ♥♥♥♥, but too many people nower days call false accusations of rape. I for one find it difficult to believe if it's a "boy who cried wolf" thing that the media jumps on- as usual -or if it's legit. Someone, point me in the direction of solid proof because until then I struggle to believe these accusations. - blame the idiots who make these accusations out of lies

And unfortunately, as time continues to move forward, more & more evidence appears to come forward that the accusations, from Zoe at least, are false. After making her accusations & people starting looking into it, she started deleting a bunch of tweets that indicate a completely different series of events from that time period, which seems very shady to begin with. Thankfully people managed to capture a large majority of it before she managed to hide it all away, on top of other sources coming forth that work against her claims. You can see all of it in this article:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-zoe-quinns-allegations-are-falling-apart/

But yeah, a lot of it is super suspicious and calls a lot into question. I really hate people who lie about truly horrible things like this too, because it ultimately just makes it all into a joke for people to not take seriously when it actually does happen to someone and just hurts the victims even further. We, as a species, can be so ♥♥♥♥♥♥ to each other to the point it knows no depths, that it seriously leaves my stomach permanently turned.

[AshynnKor]

Originally posted by flowtackendall:

Originally posted by Façade:

Honestly. I don't want to be a ♥♥♥♥, but too many people nower days call false accusations of rape. I for one find it difficult to believe if it's a "boy who cried wolf" thing that the media jumps on- as usual -or if it's legit. Someone, point me in the direction of solid proof because until then I struggle to believe these accusations. - blame the idiots who make these accusations out of lies

And unfortunately, as time continues to move forward, more & more evidence appears to come forward that the accusations, from Zoe at least, are false. After making her accusations & people starting looking into it, she started deleting a bunch of tweets that indicate a completely different series of events from that time period, which seems very shady to begin with. Thankfully people managed to capture a large majority of it before she managed to hide it all away, on top of other sources coming forth that work against her claims. You can see all of it in this article:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-zoe-quinns-allegations-are-falling-apart/

But yeah, a lot of it is super suspicious and calls a lot into question. I really hate people who lie about truly horrible things like this too, because it ultimately just makes it all into a joke for people to not take seriously when it actually does happen to someone and just hurts the victims even further. We, as a species, can be so ♥♥♥♥♥♥ to each other to the point it knows no depths, that it seriously leaves my stomach permanently turned.

It's honestly just vile people do it. I'm just here listening to the NITW soundtrack now