About the WipEout tracks

[MisterZen]

Hey Devs! I have something to ask ya: I know that the tracks from the WipEout games have been removed because of a possible copyright infringement, but have you thought of reimplementing the tracks from the original WipEout, WipEout 2097, and Wip3out into BallisticNG via use of physical legal copies of the game like you did with the vehicles? I like to see them return in this game, if possible.

[Neo Te Aika]

I asked this I think last month or a bit longer back and a dev said they'll work on it. I'd assume it's low priority though, because the imported ships actually handle differently while the imported tracks would just be tracks (and cool ones!)

[MisterZen]

Oh. I see. So the question was already asked before I had the chance.

[MisterZen]

Now I'm in my nosy state again. Which dev were you speaking with at the time, Neonstar?

[NPC_CO8ALT]

Do you really wamt to put in game elements that are GUARANTEED to get this game pulled off steam? Can't we just have ships and tracks INSPIRED by wipeout rather than asked them to blantently copy and paste the old tracks and ships?

I'd rather not see yet another great game shut down by cease and disist orders. Don't thnk Sony won't try if provoked.

[MisterZen]

I think you're right. I probably shouldn't have asked this question then in order to not risk having this game getting a cease and desist notice, though I mentioned that the tracks (and the vehicles) could only be played by purchasing physical LEGAL copies. Essentially, you need to own a game disk in order to play as the old teams and have access to their respective tracks. I wasn't asking the Devs to just slip the tracks in the base game and hope that Sony won't notice.

However, if there's a possibility that I might spark an argument over this topic, should I delete this thread?

[Polarized]

The thread isn't a problem.
The way BallisticNG works with loading Wipeout assets is a bit of a copyright grey area since there's no actual Wipeout data in the game files, it needs to be provided by the end user. The way the user provides those files is entirely up to them (using actual legitimate game discs or ripped ISOs). If what BallisticNG is doing can be considered copyright violation, I'm not sure since we only offer the possibility of running Wipeout data. I think it would fall in the same terms as a PS1 emulator. However, tracks do need to be modified to run on BallisticNG's engine, so those aren't as clean as the ships.

To play it safe, Wipeout tracks are a no-go.

[MisterZen]

Originally posted by Xpand:

The thread isn't a problem.
The way BallisticNG works with loading Wipeout assets is a bit of a copyright grey area since there's no actual Wipeout data in the game files, it needs to be provided by the end user. The way the user provides those files is entirely up to them (using actual legitimate game discs or ripped ISOs). If what BallisticNG is doing can be considered copyright violation, I'm not sure since we only offer the possibility of running Wipeout data. I think it would fall in the same terms as a PS1 emulator. However, tracks do need to be modified to run on BallisticNG's engine, so those aren't as clean as the ships.

That's what I mean in response to NPC #888's above comment.
As for the tracks, I would have assumed the tracks needed to be modified in order to run on BallisticNG's engine, because otherwise, how would the track's speed and weapon pads work? Also, there would have to be changes to the track geometry and layouts. For example, WipEout 2097 and Wip3out have starting lanes for their tracks that go up to 12-15 contenders, but BallisticNG only features 8 contenders max, so the starting lane would need texture changes to only display 8 starting positions.

Originally posted by Xpand:

To play it safe, Wipeout tracks are a no-go.

So the only way you could play the tracks is to convert them into custom tracks, and that option isn't available until a later update. Otherwise, like you said, it's a 100% guarantee that these tracks will not be included in the game to avoid potential copyright infringement, even if you're required to own a legal copy of any of the PS1 WipEout games to play these tracks.

[Polarized]

There will be no need to physically change the tracks. The problem has to do with the internals. BallisticNG doesn't treat track data the same way Wipeout does. Naming conventions for what is a speed pad tile are different for example. So what we would have to do is read the wipeout track mesh data and generate a BallisticNG track from the mesh data. In a sense do a file conversion. And that means the used track in BallisticNG isn't 100% Wipeout data as it was modified.

[Tyrian Mollusk]

Obviously, devs should spot check with a lawyer (which I am not), but if you aren't distributing or solely fostering distribution of their content, you aren't violating their copyright. Make sure your converter (and it should be a converter, not a live Wipeout-reader-emulator) warns users they cannot copy the converted levels/ships, do not break any kind of DRM (even a useless one), and you should be as on the right side of the law as you can be. Certainly, converting level data is in no way different from converting ship data.

[Polarized]

There's no DRM in, at least, WipEout and Wipeout 2097. The only things "protecting" the intelectual property are the file formats themselves, which, if you know how to read them, you're good to go. There's not even encryption or anything. Wipeout3 is different in that aspect, the files are all encrypted, but since the encryption algorithm is known, it's quickly becomes the same case as the other two games. Technically the game's not cracking anything open when it's reading the ship files, although we did have to crack the games open beforehand to get the information on how to read said files. So I really don't know where that puts BNG, in terms of copyright infingement. It sorta reverse engineers the Wipeout games, but it makes no changes.

I think it's sorta like going to someone's unused car, taking it apart to see how it works, and putting it perfectly back together without the owners noticing it.

[Tyrian Mollusk]

If the converter decrypts files, that likely won't work. It does not mater whether the encryption is useful, only that it indicates the intent of DRM (this is a legal issue, not a technical one). If the user uses some other tool to offer decrypted files to the converter, then the converter isn't doing anything wrong, but things get a little more grey because your tool only has a purpose if the user violates the encryption, which you are obviously encouraging. Whether that is a legal kind of "encouraging" or a risky kind of "encouraging", I don't know. Like I said, check with a lawyer, because this is all quickly answered.

[Polarized]

Well the thing is, the game itself decrypts the files. The user only has to provide them. But the decryption and reading procedures are hidden from the public, so the user has no direct access to the data within said files, only BNG has it. The provided files themselves are not modified, just read. So I honestly think there's no intelectual property violation here.

[Tyrian Mollusk]

Definetely not ok. If that's what it's doing, then it illegally circumvents an access control system, and by distributing that they are "trafficking" in circumvention tools. Again, this is legal not technical. The "encryption" could be XOR for all it matters.

Making local versions of the files versus running from the files live without copying makes no difference, and keeping the method hidden in code (which is meaningless) doesn't matter at all.

If they want to do this, they should strip out the decryption stuff, make a converter to read "various" track storage systems and write data specific to their game. The decryptor that would produce the intermediate format for it to read violates the DMCA and could only be distributed somewhere such laws don't apply. Even linking to it on a US site is probably a no-no (that "trafficking" part is super broad).

Seriously, running live from original data is in no way better than conversion, but has the added downside that 1) your converter has greater value to the future, and 2) you run a significant risk of making your game itself a derived work of WIpeout rather than merely a tool that produces a derived work locally for the end user. Don't go there.

[Polarized]

Here's the important bit I missed though: the encryption algorithm they used in WO3 (LZ77) is a generic encryption algorithm, it's not Sony's property. We didn't do any hacking per say, just apply the algorithm and the files are out. It's as much of a protection as converting .wav to .mp3 and hope nobody knows how to read .mp3 files. Which by the way, if a game uses .mp3 files, it's doing an even greater copyright infringement than reading WipEout ship data since there's absolutely no license for anyone to use that format other than its creators, it's not an open format, lol

All in all this BNG feature falls under the same category as PS1 emulators, only less serious because it only uses two files from the game.

Anyway though, WO tracks aren't going to be importable, exactly because of the copyright issues that (very unlikely) might arise.

[Tyrian Mollusk]

Like I said, it doesn't matter if the "encryption" is XOR (completely generic and open), it only matters that something is used AS encryption that specifically gateways accessing the date. End of story. Now, if it's just standard compression (like LZ77) that happens to be there because it's useful, and not a data gateway, it's not an access control, so the DMCA doesn't care if you decode it. It's all very silly, really, but there's law for you. Also, merely reading a data format is no copyright violation. You don't need a license to read a data format. That said, your code for reading a data format can be a copyright violation of their code, unless you do proper clean-room documentation for your reverse engineering. Do that, and the format-reading code is entirely copyright unencumbered.

And again, you can use WO tracks or vehicles as long as you do it by letting the end-user convert their own data to your format (and discourage distribution just to show how on the good side you are). Using tracks is no different from using ships (well, actually, ships are more likely to have trademark restrictions, which are actually much more of a problem than copyright). Both are WO game content with the same issues (you can help the use make a personal-use derived work under fair use, but you need to be certain you yourself are not a derived work).

But really, by far the cleanest and best of all is just to tell people about something that converts WO tracks/ships to your own track/ship format (and remind them not to distribute, but if they do, that isn't your fault). Then users get the benefit and it's all entirely outside the game, which just needs a good enough track and ship format to cover WO. A pretty cool goal anyway.