Resources for opening builds

[lethminite]

I've only just started playing this game, and I really like the design, I like the strategy, the level of interaction, and the depth of mastery that's obviously possible.

However, what i'm finding seems really lacking, is information for getting started.
There are a few how to play videos explaining how to place towers or summon mercs, some tier lists of what are good (or have been good) fighters/Roles, and some videos or guides about a few specific opening builds.

The best advice I could find, across many many different resources, was to start, try playing each legion ~3 times to learn all the towers, then try mastermind with lock-in for a specific opener that you know, and I found a list of 3 that really went into any detail (just a steam guide), and a few videos that went into really deep detail, clearly aimed at people who already know the game, and want to try some weird openers, rather than something stable.

To me, it seems like knowing what fighters make for a viable opener seems like a pretty important skill, that every single person who plays ranked as anything other than "lock-in" must have, but it doesn't appear to be written down anywhere, and where it is written down, doesn't appear to be kept up to date, as viable openers appear to change fairly regularly.

What i'm imagining is just a guide for the first maybe 3-5 waves, where there is pretty low variation based on what your opponent is doing, just for example I saw a mudman/coiler opening which might look like:

1: Mudman at (2:6) +2 worker
2: Coiler at (1:1) (need 8 gold from income/snail)
3: Harden Mudman and save gold (no worker or figher)
4: Upgrade to deepcoiler, then push.

The video had a bunch of other information, and this is maybe an overly complex example because it's a very specific opener.
on the other end might be a Grarl opener:

1: Grarl at (1:6)
2: Sell Grarl, buy non-eggsack T6 unit.
3: Workerx2-3 depending on how much mythium you've been sent + rest on fighters

Something like that.

Does anyone know if this already exists, and I've just missed it? or how did most players learn how to not shoot themselves in the foot when playing mastermind? Just trial and error, with lots of leaks wave 2-5?

[blauerbrummer]

well me personally learned trough single player campaign and a lot trial and error. The honey flower is in my opinion always a good start. and i played all the "races" first to get a feeling of the units.

[Danwulfe]

Would recommend seeing what others are doing usually.

Check out the top games tab, or go into people's profiles and see how they're starting and if they hold vs a send they received.

I used to have a good list in my discord https://discord.gg/ZgfU7ha but sadly the links to ltdstats died but will be updating and doing it again during next month.

There is also this https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2489597444 which goes over a couple of starts.

[lethminite]

Thanks, I had seen that guide, it was the one I mentioned that had 3 listed. That's basically what i'm after, but with it actually filled out for all those builds it listed as viable. Only listing 3, that's enough to chose one of those 3 and start doing lock-in, but it doesn't really cover enough to be much use for using any other mastermind options, if you aren't offered one of those 3 towers, what works?

Personally, I'm just trying to beat the campaign on hard, using Yolo, and restarting a lot when I get smashed wave 3-5, but even then, that might be training me for bad habits, where it would normally work, but because of the AI's early buffs, they are sending an early brute, or similar, and so how do I know if leaking that wave is considered fine? (which is why I was hoping that there was some type of resource), and also doing some classic, where if I leak early, people will catch it.

But that doesn't seem like a really smooth entry into the game.

I guess this kind of leads into how do I know when i'm ready for ranked? Obviously i can just start, and lose many of my early games, but i'd rather not drag others down, and i'd want to think i'm about middle skilled before starting.

[Danwulfe]

Originally posted by lethminite:

Thanks, I had seen that guide, it was the one I mentioned that had 3 listed. That's basically what i'm after, but with it actually filled out for all those builds it listed as viable. Only listing 3, that's enough to chose one of those 3 and start doing lock-in, but it doesn't really cover enough to be much use for using any other mastermind options, if you aren't offered one of those 3 towers, what works?

Personally, I'm just trying to beat the campaign on hard, using Yolo, and restarting a lot when I get smashed wave 3-5, but even then, that might be training me for bad habits, where it would normally work, but because of the AI's early buffs, they are sending an early brute, or similar, and so how do I know if leaking that wave is considered fine? (which is why I was hoping that there was some type of resource), and also doing some classic, where if I leak early, people will catch it.

But that doesn't seem like a really smooth entry into the game.

I guess this kind of leads into how do I know when i'm ready for ranked? Obviously i can just start, and lose many of my early games, but i'd rather not drag others down, and i'd want to think i'm about middle skilled before starting.

Wouldn't worry too much about when to start playing ranked as we all start at different levels and learn differently.

Can comfortably say if you can beat rhe campaign bot King Dan on Hard Mode repeatedly, you could probably get to diamond in ranked relatively easily.

As for starts, mentioned it before but look at what others do or experiment in the sandbox.

Mentioned about playing classic, after that game look how your opponent started, was there a particular player that absolutely carried the early and had more workers than anyone?

[Kermode Bear]

A start that I personally enjoy, that may not be optimal, but it is an easy inroad to the Pack Rat economy:

1. Build a Wandering Soul. Doesn't matter much where. Build a Pack Rat, have him hunt for gold, build a worker. During the wave, buy a second worker.
2. You don't need to do anything here.
3. Send your Rat hunting again and build something to deal with the magic/natural armor combo.

The great thing about this opener is the flexibility. Pack Rat gives decent myth in exchange for its price, and using it allows you to build more optimally by trading its Impact/Swift traits for something else.

Keep the rat in the ground; when you have a wave when the Rat would be useful (13 is a classic example) you can push workers hard the wave before and end up with an outsized send.

Once you build 4-6 of the Looters you can swap swap them out for something else. They don't become obsolete per se in the late game, the Treasure Hunt / value store is still useful, but you'll probably have better units to build with your gold by then.

Depending on your build, you can use a few Looters to cause a split on the cheap. Also note that Treasure Hunt is great on short waves - you get the 12 myth no matter what, so short waves give you an extra edge in myth production over time.

It's also useful store of extra value in your pocket in case someone suddenly goes hard on workers. Pack Rat is one of my favorite units because of the flexibility it provides to your build.

It may not be the most optimal tryhard high ELO game winner, but it's fun, and that's what I care about most.

[lethminite]

Thanks, I am after that type of information, but the issue is not knowing individual good builds, which is more what lock-in is for, it's about knowing enough viable builds that no matter what towers you are offered, you know what you need to keep to survive for the first few turns.

Sure, if I happen to be offered gargoyle, I know that's safe, and I can upgrade it.
But can I start will Elite Archer? or with Atom? for lower teir tower starts, do I need to start by spaming a few of them, or a single upgraded one? How many workers are safe to push, or how many T1 fighters need to support my main purchase?

What i'm most worried about is getting offered 10 fighters, none of which I know if i can start with, and doing a massive screwup on wave one (or 2-5), and putting me quite far behind early, because so much of the game is about cascading early advantage.