Turtle is an exercise in tedium.

[Shockwave]

The limitation on selling relationship every minute is insane. If you place an offering well or trade or put a scout on a neutral you have to either make sure you sell it every 60 seconds... which you can't do in an RTS, or you have to cancel your trade route/well/scout, etc.

If you forget you max out your relationship and can't sell it anymore (unless you betray them and start all over).

You can't sell relationship faster than you acculumulate it in most cases. This should be reverted and you should be able to sell down a bunch of relationship at once and then go on about playing the game.

Your hero reduces cost in the territory he is in , meaning to get anything real out of that you have to move him... EVERYWHERE. colonize, forge, upgrading, recruiting troops... you have to make sure the leader is there.

Turtle citizens run into their hovels but if you want to release them (if there is a tower in the that territory and it is better that they fight) then you have to manually make them.

many turtle mechanics involve too much micro management by the player to work. Who thought this was fun?

[lik123]

turtle is such a weak clan.Sometimes i just forget that i dont have my chief in main tile bcs im clearing or whatever and then i buy villager without cost reduction.Lore encourages caravans to go further in the map and harvest resource from there for max bonus but once you get that far ur suddenly exposed not only to neutral hostiles but every godamn player on the map,and once u lose caravan u lost shopkeepers too.Also gifting resources to other players while the clan can barely maintain its own production is insane.

[ProtoScrawl]

Originally posted by Shockwave:

The limitation on selling relationship every minute is insane. If you place an offering well or trade or put a scout on a neutral you have to either make sure you sell it every 60 seconds... which you can't do in an RTS, or you have to cancel your trade route/well/scout, etc.

If you forget you max out your relationship and can't sell it anymore (unless you betray them and start all over).

You can't sell relationship faster than you acculumulate it in most cases. This should be reverted and you should be able to sell down a bunch of relationship at once and then go on about playing the game.

Your hero reduces cost in the territory he is in , meaning to get anything real out of that you have to move him... EVERYWHERE. colonize, forge, upgrading, recruiting troops... you have to make sure the leader is there.

Turtle citizens run into their hovels but if you want to release them (if there is a tower in the that territory and it is better that they fight) then you have to manually make them.

many turtle mechanics involve too much micro management by the player to work. Who thought this was fun?

I think the added micromanagement would be fine if there were at least more keybinds that could be swapped or added. Hovering over the Recruit button has "[Q]" implying I should be able to press Q and recruit when I have the resources, but it doesn't. The discount from the warchief should just apply while he is alive and maybe be a bit less effective, or he just needs a completely different passive bonus. There should be a dedicated key to autoselect all units of caravans just like you can scouts, villagers, and military units, or these keybinds should be exposed in settings for people to add them manually.

TLDR: Turtle is a cool concept that needs some balancing, but it's ultimately bottlenecked by the inputs of the game.

[The Field Marshal]

The Turtle clan's biggest strength is trade, trade victory's are far more achievable than even the Raven Clan.

[Fauxsteel]

terrible clan overall tbh.

Between tortoise and turtle. The name of the clan. Using horses instead of just having a turtle lead the caravan; they gave up on viking realism a long time ago anyway.

I am convinced they're out of good ideas and are churning things out.

[The Debauchery]

Honestly I'm impressed by the shellbacks.
It took me a while to get used to the clan's unique mechanics, but once I got a handle on it, the results are pretty amazing.

Turtle are the only clan who can get Trade Victory without even sending out a single ship, since you can use the Relic to directly buy Miklagaard's approval.
I reckon the focus people seem to have on selling influence is kinda secondary to the matter of buying influence where you need it.

They can also use guerrilla tactics since, as long as you've already scouted out the map, you can just progress a warband consisting of your warchief and some troops along with a caravan. Then you set up the caravan near enemy territory and you've got a remote healing location and a staging ground for invasion without the usual overextension penalty from being too far from your territory, and without risking any of your vital infrastructure.

Plus with that skill that gives you a productivity boost depending on the caravan's distance from your permanent territory, you can also send out caravans and park them on all the Lorestones on the map to gain lore at an increased rate, so it is comparatively simple even to get a Wisdom Victory with only a small permanent settlement.
Heck, it also works to drain all the iron and stone from near the enemy territory with the productivity boost

I think the only thing that bothers me a tad are all the villagers running indoors when attacked, since for most other clans, the villagers themselves are a pretty good extra line of defence... but I guess it makes sense if you think of it in terms of caravans. If the enemy get to your main base then you've probably already lost. The clan seems like it is meant to be played at long range on large maps.

[Shockwave]

I disagree that you can use the caravans on all the lorestones. THey would easily die so far from home and at opposite ends of the map. In addition you would have to clean the territories all the way to those lorestones in order to clean the lorestone territory itself for your caravan. If you have time to do that you have time to win another way.

Again with iron and stone you have to beat them to the iron and stone AND set your caravans on mining Iron and stone (which would kill your economy early before the enemiy gets to those terrtiroies).

Unless you are playing the AI on super easy there is no chance of doing either of those things. Certainly not on exteme.

[The Debauchery]

Originally posted by Shockwave:

I disagree that you can use the caravans on all the lorestones. THey would easily die so far from home and at opposite ends of the map.

Die of what? Exposure?
You need to clear out the enemies in the zone for them to even set up shop there in the first place. And once it is set up there, there is a lore bonus to give caravans the same basic abilities as watchtowers.
About the only possible threat is an enemy faction's warband, and that isn't exactly going to happen often in the middle of nowhere.

In addition you would have to clean the territories all the way to those lorestones in order to clean the lorestone territory itself for your caravan. If you have time to do that you have time to win another way.

Sure, but this isn't about winning another way. It is about Wisdom Victory being easily viable. Winning another way is fundamentally irrelevant to this process.
You act as though doing anything besides sitting in one zone and waiting for trade victory is fundamentally a waste of time. There ARE other options, and sometimes trade victory is NOT on the table.
And it isn't like other clans don't have to send out their warband to clear the map when they aren't just squatting at home with ships. THAT part of the process is the same across the board.

Again with iron and stone you have to beat them to the iron and stone AND set your caravans on mining Iron and stone (which would kill your economy early before the enemiy gets to those terrtiroies).

Unless you are playing the AI on super easy there is no chance of doing either of those things. Certainly not on exteme.

I have done it on Extreme. It was just for a lark, mind you. It wasn't even difficult. It didn't kill the economy any more than building a mining station, except I was able to set it up basically for free on the other side of the map. You're talking bollocks.
Beating enemies to most places is pretty easy as Turtle since you don't have to chain colonise your way there. You just clear the animals along the path.

See, this is the problem where you have to try and make petty excuses to justify your salt for a clan that is actually good. Your hatred has no basis. You're free to dislike them if you want, but they're not a bad clan.

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by The Debauchery:

Die of what? Exposure?
About the only possible threat is an enemy faction's warband,

Uh yeah... what are you playing against 1 AI on a huge map? I mean where are all these lorestones that are not near you and somehow not near any enemies either? I mean you clear all the way out there to EVERY lorestone on the map..... to place your caravans there. In what scenario are there even 4 territories with lorestones that you beat all the AI/ other players to in order to place your caravans and then leave them there undefended (you aren't running your warband back and forth to 4 different loretone territories). And the Extreme AI demolishes a single tower in seconds.... so getting to the tech that makes them like towers isn't saving them.

Originally posted by The Debauchery:

Sure, but this isn't about winning another way. It is about Wisdom Victory being easily viable. Winning another way is fundamentally irrelevant to this process.

Wait... so your argument is that the Turtle clan is good because it can win a wisdom victory in 5 years when you could have won a fame victory in 3 years..... Huh? How on earth is the fact you can win another way in a shorter time not relevant? Ridiculous.

Originally posted by The Debauchery:

You act as though doing anything besides sitting in one zone and waiting for trade victory is fundamentally a waste of time. There ARE other options, and sometimes trade victory is NOT on the table.

Here is where you lost all credibility for me. Nobody mentioned trade victory at all.

[The Debauchery]

Originally posted by Shockwave:

Uh yeah... what are you playing against 1 AI on a huge map? I mean where are all these lorestones that are not near you and somehow not near any enemies either? I mean you clear all the way out there to EVERY lorestone on the map..... to place your caravans there. In what scenario are there even 4 territories with lorestones that you beat all the AI/ other players to in order to place your caravans and then leave them there undefended (you aren't running your warband back and forth to 4 different loretone territories). And the Extreme AI demolishes a single tower in seconds.... so getting to the tech that makes them like towers isn't saving them.

Are you missing the part where the AI is idiotic, even on Extreme difficulty?
It expands in random directions then just plonks down a marketplace for some reason. It attacks its own allies with little or no reason some days, and others it just ignores everything. It is quite easy to get across the map at the start and snatch things out from under its nose while it just arses around with marketplaces.
You're talking like you've never played against the AI...

Wait... so your argument is that the Turtle clan is good because it can win a wisdom victory in 5 years when you could have won a fame victory in 3 years..... Huh? How on earth is the fact you can win another way in a shorter time not relevant? Ridiculous.

You are being ridiculous, yes. I'm obviously saying the Turtle clan can get ANY type of victory easily, including Wisdom. And here you are getting fixated on Fame victories when I'm detailing the method of the Wisdom victory. How much more do I have to dumb it down before you can follow? I'm not a primary school teacher, y'know.

Here is where you lost all credibility for me. Nobody mentioned trade victory at all.

I did. I figured you'd probably go that way because Trade Victory requires the least actual movement. But no, you were fixated on Fame Victory. My mistake. I misread the particular flavour of your idiocy. Such a shame I "lost all credibility" for not automatically knowing your favourite victory type.

Well, obviously the best solution here is for me simply to block you, as trying to actually communicate simple concepts to one struggling to string ideas together as you are requires more energy than I can spare. Enjoy getting nothing but Fame Victories forever, stranger.


(p.s. Turtle Clan can get those pretty easily too, since temporarily colonising fox / wolf dens collapses them just like regular colonising)