what is communauty thoughts about the reworks of the last patch?

[Mathusalem]

title

[MaxorMeow]

Some good changes were made, but overall I still very much dislike the last update.

Here are some of the posts I've read that perfectly sum up how the new update feels.

Originally posted by Oskan Andalusian:

Well, sad to see that my beloved Raven's raids have been made totally useless now then from the sounds of it. The fact they now leave after a short time and no longer decapture zones makes them literally pointless, and "stealing" resources (afaik it never actually "stole" the resources in the first place?) is just a longer, more risky, more expensive version of just buying things from the marketplace, so in other words pointless.

A lot of these other changes seem pointless to someone who doesn't play PvP and never will.

Can we have some form of mode or alternative beta branch to get the old clan versions back please?

Edit:
Having now had the time to try the new Raven changes, if the complaints / reasoning were that the clan was "Overpowered", then now all you've done is make them much stronger, and simultaneously enormously less fun to play. If I wanted to have to fight my way across the whole map to the other team's base I'd play literally any other clan, I don't play Clan Raven to have to spawn a horde of essentially free troops and slowly map-paint my way across to the Town Hall's like I would with any other faction. The whole fun quirk and USP of playing the Raven (for me) is being able to de-capture / take out other players from across the map if they aren't careful about protecting their coasts. Now it's just laughably easy to spam raids and swarm across the map with a horde of troops.
Very much not a fun update for Raven, a huge downgrade and genuinely off-putting from wanting to even play what was a very fun game.
If you want to overhaul a clan to such a huge extent as to have them basically be an entirely new clan.. just make a new clan instead, don't take away what was already present and fun.

Originally posted by Titan Methos:

Back for a second round of comments after playing with a few different clans... and I gotta say... This update seems like 1 step forward, 4 steps back...

You've de-fanged all the most prominent and Militarily threatening aspects of most the more powerful clans, in favor of what appears to be a lot more traditional Strategy... Which I'm pretty sure this community has said before: WE DO NOT WANT Traditional Strategy... If we did, we'd all go back to AOE...

Raven Raids have been nerfed to the point of being only a nuisance Ability (They were OP before yes, but now they're just pointless raids that pose no threat if you EVAC the targeted tile...)

Instead of reworking relics to make them more viable, or even give the Lore Tree an option for all clans to deploy a second one, you've just plain removed them. Limiting options instead of expanding on them...

You've removed Medicine from Raven, Dragon, & Snake, punching these predominantly military factions in the GUT without that extra 50% healing (maybe nerf the Medicine lore in general? Instead of REMOVE it as an option?)

All of these kinds of Double-Nerf/Streamline mistakes have become way too common in game development... something is OP or useless (usually from specific perspectives,) so you opt to REMOVE options and play-styles, instead of balancing to adapt them.

Please rollback this update, take a step back, and look how you can IMPROVE the relics, clan features, and so on, rather than adopt the "Nullify, Remove, Streamline" attitude that ruins these kinds of games...

Originally posted by Titan Methos:

Good development and better balance is build on CONSTRUCTIVE aspects of adding and tweaking...

Sure, I agree that Raven Mercs being able to decolonize was OP, and that fire javelins were a tad too powerful in raw building damage, for a game where buildings are not military targets to destroy...

BUT, instead of hitting their raids with a QUADRUPLE NERF, maybe look at what factions suffer most from their harassment, and build them up instead, and tweak their stats. Rather than flip the "OBLITERATE OP FACTION" switch... Then mix one or two lighter changes to Raven Raids (Like making Merc unable to decolonize...)

Instead of REMOVING the unused Bragful, amp it's gold gain per-influence, shorten the influence required for each step, and (as I said before) just tweak a end tier lore to give all factions 1 additional relic slot... (or just make their Clan Relic not take a Relic Slot...)

Instead of just DEVOLVING the powerful factions, EVOLVE the more dated and weaker factions.

[[FrozenEarth] Fra]

Originally posted by MaxorMeow:

Some good changes were made, but overall I still very much dislike the last update.

Here are some of the posts I've read that perfectly sum up how the new update feels.

Originally posted by Oskan Andalusian:

Well, sad to see that my beloved Raven's raids have been made totally useless now then from the sounds of it. The fact they now leave after a short time and no longer decapture zones makes them literally pointless, and "stealing" resources (afaik it never actually "stole" the resources in the first place?) is just a longer, more risky, more expensive version of just buying things from the marketplace, so in other words pointless.

A lot of these other changes seem pointless to someone who doesn't play PvP and never will.

Can we have some form of mode or alternative beta branch to get the old clan versions back please?

Edit:
Having now had the time to try the new Raven changes, if the complaints / reasoning were that the clan was "Overpowered", then now all you've done is make them much stronger, and simultaneously enormously less fun to play. If I wanted to have to fight my way across the whole map to the other team's base I'd play literally any other clan, I don't play Clan Raven to have to spawn a horde of essentially free troops and slowly map-paint my way across to the Town Hall's like I would with any other faction. The whole fun quirk and USP of playing the Raven (for me) is being able to de-capture / take out other players from across the map if they aren't careful about protecting their coasts. Now it's just laughably easy to spam raids and swarm across the map with a horde of troops.
Very much not a fun update for Raven, a huge downgrade and genuinely off-putting from wanting to even play what was a very fun game.
If you want to overhaul a clan to such a huge extent as to have them basically be an entirely new clan.. just make a new clan instead, don't take away what was already present and fun.

Originally posted by Titan Methos:

Back for a second round of comments after playing with a few different clans... and I gotta say... This update seems like 1 step forward, 4 steps back...

You've de-fanged all the most prominent and Militarily threatening aspects of most the more powerful clans, in favor of what appears to be a lot more traditional Strategy... Which I'm pretty sure this community has said before: WE DO NOT WANT Traditional Strategy... If we did, we'd all go back to AOE...

Raven Raids have been nerfed to the point of being only a nuisance Ability (They were OP before yes, but now they're just pointless raids that pose no threat if you EVAC the targeted tile...)

Instead of reworking relics to make them more viable, or even give the Lore Tree an option for all clans to deploy a second one, you've just plain removed them. Limiting options instead of expanding on them...

You've removed Medicine from Raven, Dragon, & Snake, punching these predominantly military factions in the GUT without that extra 50% healing (maybe nerf the Medicine lore in general? Instead of REMOVE it as an option?)

All of these kinds of Double-Nerf/Streamline mistakes have become way too common in game development... something is OP or useless (usually from specific perspectives,) so you opt to REMOVE options and play-styles, instead of balancing to adapt them.

Please rollback this update, take a step back, and look how you can IMPROVE the relics, clan features, and so on, rather than adopt the "Nullify, Remove, Streamline" attitude that ruins these kinds of games...

Originally posted by Titan Methos:

Good development and better balance is build on CONSTRUCTIVE aspects of adding and tweaking...

Sure, I agree that Raven Mercs being able to decolonize was OP, and that fire javelins were a tad too powerful in raw building damage, for a game where buildings are not military targets to destroy...

BUT, instead of hitting their raids with a QUADRUPLE NERF, maybe look at what factions suffer most from their harassment, and build them up instead, and tweak their stats. Rather than flip the "OBLITERATE OP FACTION" switch... Then mix one or two lighter changes to Raven Raids (Like making Merc unable to decolonize...)

Instead of REMOVING the unused Bragful, amp it's gold gain per-influence, shorten the influence required for each step, and (as I said before) just tweak a end tier lore to give all factions 1 additional relic slot... (or just make their Clan Relic not take a Relic Slot...)

Instead of just DEVOLVING the powerful factions, EVOLVE the more dated and weaker factions.

Raven wasn't op at all, 1 single relic (svalin) could completely make useless raids (in which u invested a lot of upgrades and time). After patch it can be strong depending on the map, but it's way less fun compared to the the previous version to play which is why I don't like raven now .

[Col. Hathi]

The Raven changes do sound a bit disappointing, but I haven't tried them yet. I imagine I'll miss being able to upgrade the mercenary raiders with the forge.

I don't think I like the Kraken changes though. Maybe It'll be better once I get more used to them, and mind you I've only played one game with them so far, but I'm so sad that the abilities were moved/removed.
I loved sending spectral warriors to raid the enemy. I understand that it was annoying for the enemy, but now we get to replace most events with kraken events instead, which is boring, it doesn't feel impactful, I don't feel like I need the loot that the kraken gives me, and it replaces the other cool events. I like the kraken event, don't get me wrong, but this is not what I wanted :(
The new wyrd mechanic feels awkward too. It's interesting, but I don't think I like juggling it in this way.
As a small extra note, I feel like the clan has become more of a threat with all the extra spectral warriors that they're able to generate and use and control in combat, which is fine, but I didn't really want to use the kraken clan in this way. I thought it was cool that their military was on the weaker side, because that wasn't their forte.
The wyrd abilities in general just felt better and more satisfying to use before, and they felt more like a result of some cult worship, which is what I assume they were going for initially.
I will say though that I very much appreciate being able to have spectral warriors and not be penalized by them finally, when playing as the kraken clan.

I haven't played the snake clan or eagle clan since the update, but I am super bummed that the snake clan no longer sets fire to buildings that they raid (same for the raven clan raids), that they no longer make the neutral factions angry at other players (I've had tons of fun with that), and that the eagle clan scouts no longer get lore from exploration. It sounds like the eagle clan got better/more caches IIRC, but with how the caches spawn, that doesn't make me excited.

I liked the sound of the dragon clan changes. I don't play the dragon clan much because the dragon essence system always felt kinda awkward to juggle, along with the slaves, but I like that there's no longer a limit on slaves, and that it's been made easier to convert fallen enemies to slaves. However, if you've got a lot of slaves and you look away for what feels like just a second, suddenly you've got a HUGE revolt on your hand that's just impossible to recover from realistically, it feels like. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

The few Horse clan changes that we got seem great, but the leadership military tree with the horse warchiefs have become a lot less fun :/

[GeminiEclipse]

I can only speak from a pve conquest perspective.

For Raven I like the speed of the raids. They get to the tile so fast now. I use them to support my main force, or distract/weaken tiles before I get there. They're also very cheap and easy to spam multiple tiles with.

I've had to change my knowledge order to take advantage of the scouting. And going for trade wins is a bit messy with population.

The Liv sight ability seems nice for some conquest maps. I have the warg one to do next and it should be pretty easy with that.

For Kraken I think they really need a button to toggle wyrd on and off from the Horgr. Maybe give it a cast time or something. Overall though I like the design. It's really changed up how I do build orders compared to other clans. There's a bit more micro, but it's only for a short period.

They can get a lot of people fast and can focus stone on important buildings which is really nice.

I haven't been able to try out the new Eagle yet, or most of the new maps, but so far I think it's fine. I don't think it's as dire as people say it is.

[MaxorMeow]

Originally posted by Col. Hathi:

I am super bummed that the snake clan no longer makes the neutral factions angry at other players (I've had tons of fun with that).

I will miss this so much! I hope they bring back this feature some day

[Col. Hathi]

So I just tried a Raven Clan game against bots, and I honestly loved the raiding more than I ever have. It was fast and easy, not too expensive, and actually supported my economy greatly while weakening my enemies. Stole a bunch of stone and iron too. That unique raven relic is a must though. The relic is a great improvement.

I still miss the fiery death that you used to be able to rain upon your enemies, as well as being able to decolonize zones, but this is great too ^^

Maybe it's just me, but I also actually don't like that I can control the mercenaries. I prefer just watching them do their thing.

EDIT: Love the fewer relics too.

[Col. Hathi]

Tried the Eagle clan. The caches still kinda suck, IMO. A bunch of them keep ending up unreachable, which is just so unsatisfying. And now the falconers don't even get lore for scouting anymore :(

The scouts being so good was the main draw for me. I don't know if I want to play the clan anymore :/

[Aratorin]

Originally posted by Col. Hathi:

Tried the Eagle clan. The caches still kinda suck, IMO. A bunch of them keep ending up unreachable, which is just so unsatisfying. And now the falconers don't even get lore for scouting anymore :(

The scouts being so good was the main draw for me. I don't know if I want to play the clan anymore :/

Eagle was undeniably OP in all modes and had to be addressed. 100% of their economy was provided by scouting and military.

[Galadhatan]

I don't much like it. I've played one 1 v 3 AI match with my fav the horse clan. Now the warchiefs are nerfed, do less damage, one less bodyguard. I seemed to be retreating from woodcutters and merchants all of a sudden. Even though they sometimes get stuck, I preferred the bodyguards just following the warchiefs, not a unique unit. I miss mjollnir. And where'd all my relic options go?

And ironically, I finished what was a normal solo game even faster, despite being nerfed. So - what was the purpose of the nerfing?

Please oh please let us roll back.

[Tenenbre]

Playing against Raven felt super imbalanced. They can now lay indefinite siege at almost no cost, so it feels impossible to leave your territory. On large maps with allies separated by mountain ranges they arrive too quick and saunter out unharmed before you can assist them.

Had a Kraken as an ally that was massively struggling. Their warchief was mega weak and balancing the Wyrd was severely limiting.

[Col. Hathi]

Originally posted by Aratorin:

Originally posted by Col. Hathi:

Tried the Eagle clan. The caches still kinda suck, IMO. A bunch of them keep ending up unreachable, which is just so unsatisfying. And now the falconers don't even get lore for scouting anymore :(

The scouts being so good was the main draw for me. I don't know if I want to play the clan anymore :/

Eagle was undeniably OP in all modes and had to be addressed. 100% of their economy was provided by scouting and military.

Really? Never felt that way to me. I always kinda struggled with them. Also, I don't think they've been nerfed, have they? I'm assuming they just put the lore that you would've gotten from scouting into caches instead, and they boosted the buff that falconers give to zones.

Originally posted by Galadhatan:

I don't much like it. I've played one 1 v 3 AI match with my fav the horse clan. Now the warchiefs are nerfed, do less damage, one less bodyguard. I seemed to be retreating from woodcutters and merchants all of a sudden. Even though they sometimes get stuck, I preferred the bodyguards just following the warchiefs, not a unique unit. I miss mjollnir. And where'd all my relic options go?

And ironically, I finished what was a normal solo game even faster, despite being nerfed. So - what was the purpose of the nerfing?

Please oh please let us roll back.

The new mjollnir seems fun for the horses, IMO. I never bothered with the old one. Seems to have a cooldown between possible procs though, which sucks. Other than that I agree :/

[Bombermans]

I really like new Raven Raids. I'm a raven main and they are now funnier and also much more fair for everyone since they can not conquer now with them. They provide support in coastline if you bring your own troops. They also grant a LOT of resources if the tile is good, so they are much more useful now.

I'm liking everything of the new update so far!

[Hikari no Kaze]

I've only played eagle so far since the update and they don't feel that different. The loss of lore is a shame but no big deal. The kraken changes sound like a real pain and have made at least one conquest battle impossible (dystopia). Not sure I have gotten my head around the raven changes so can't comment on that. Kraken were certainly OP with an unlimited spectral army from fallen enemies that doesn't count towards military units but only if you let them build up to one and I'm not sure if that has even changed in real terms.

Whilst I don't see the need to remove the two relics, I never really used them. Mjollnir I actually prefer the new effects (even if forging speed increase after building your relic is a bit weird). The jar relic sounds better too. I just hope Shiro removed the related achievements that are no longer possible for new players to achieve as part of this patch.

I can't see myself playing kraken any time soon and for players who mainly played kraken it is clearly bad, but my main take from the patch is that A it fixes the conquest bug so the game is playable again for players with a large number of hours played, without having to use a risky workaround. And B there are finally new conquest battles. They seem quite fun too. Even if there's the odd problem with new missions it is better than breaking existing ones.

[Aratorin]

The one thing I do miss is Bragaful. It was the single best relic in Conquest, as it made winning any map that allowed Trade Victory pretty fast and easy.

[Nekra]

Raven clan is a huge feelsbad. Feels completely neutered. In PvE I just take my villagers off the tile and wait for them to leave, they don't damage the builings, they just exist on my tile and then leave.

You get 0 reward for killing them.

The reward for sending them isn't worthwhile.

If decolonization is the worry, why not have them throw torches and directly attack the buildings on regions they raid? That would be a more meaningful change than as is currently.


Kraken clan I like mostly, but dislike how you basically have to sabotage your village growth in order to expand high tide zones. I think high tide should be made even more accessible.